I got checkraised twice

[Ric]

BB sat down 8 hands ago, had only played his posted BB before.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero raises, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises...

These situations are not my strong area.

Next hand, different table. SB here is SLP-P from the hands I've seen (about 1.2 total agg), MP1 is LP-P and MP3 is TP-P.

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, SB raises...

Thanks for any help.

[deepsquat]

Id prob dump Hand 1- crap spot to be in but you have no hand atm, small pot.

Hand 2: This looks like he was betting his OESD on the flop and then hit it on the turn. Pair of 6's isnt strong, fold the turn.

[benkath1]

Hand 1: I would reraise this. With no reads it's kind of hard, but I want him to prove to me he has me beat. If I miss the turn completely, I let it go if he fires. Playing AK is one of the hardest things for me to get down.

Hand 2: I don't know. I'm sorry, I just don't know. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[gasoltub]

Fold first hand.

In the second you are getting 10:1 on a ~4.5 outter, so I say call.

[@bsolute_luck]

Hand #1: i'm not too good at HUSH or play with AKo in general. with that said, it is difficult to play HU with no reads and this hand shows why. if he had anything, why wouldn't he bet out? or let you continue to bet and he'll call you all the way down or wait 'til the turn to hit you?

personally, i'd think he has junk. reraise and see what happens. capped, i'm folding. i'd bet the turn no matter what unless bet into and check behind on the river if UI.

Hand #2: looks like a small blind special to me. fold.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold first hand.

In the second you are getting 10:1 on a ~4.5 outter, so I say call.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are your outs? no straight draw, no flush draw. you're not sure if you'll have nuts if either 6 or king comes?

[HajiShirazu]

Against random players I call in hand 1 and fold UI but if he's an aggro bluffer I call down all the way unless a 9 T or Q hits, lots of bluffs can be made on a board like this. Most people don't play a J like this, you usually will have 6 outs.
I fold hand 2, he's not bluffing, you only have outs to call against two pair that doesn't contain a 6, and really that's not a likely hand- set, 68, or straight is much more likely.

[McGahee]

Hand #1 I'm not giving villian credit for a J playing HU. If he had it he'd probably wait for the turn to c/r. Call him down or better yet raise the turn for a free showdown and fold to a 3-bet.

Hand #2 is tough. I'd probably just call the flop with a very vulnerable hand in a small pot; though you can make an argument for raising. It's painfully obvious that SB is trying to trap the field on 4th street with his monster, but since you're closing the action, call and fold the river UI.

[ajrenni]

I have a hard time with these situations too. In neither hand do you have the cards to go to war with, so I think raising is out for both.

In the first hand I call, and fold to a turn bet if I don't improve, mostly because I don't like giving the impression that I can be bet off the flop easily, particularly after a PFR.

The second hand is tougher, since I'm not sure spiking a king on the river would help much, but I probably also call and fold the river UI, and not feel too good about things.

[Rosencrantz1]

I always like to look at these things from the other player's point of view.

Hand 1: I'm calling a raise, out of position in what is going to be HU play. I'm probably on a high-ish pair, maybe suited paint. I see the flop and get some piece of it (or figure I still have the best hand). I'm pretty sure the PF raiser is going to bet, so I figure it's a good time for a check-raise. He bets, I raise...I'm pretty sure I have him beat. So, yeah, you should fold it here.

I agree that AK is hard to play, but it gets easier if you accept the fact that (depending on table read/position/relative position) you're going to have to fold it when the flop misses you, I think you're on the right track.

Hand 2: I'm in the SB, there are three people in ahead of me and I can complete and feel pretty sure the BB will check. I do so and see a cheap flop, which hits me pretty well so I bet out at it, figuring that if I make my draw on the turn I'll be in good shape for a C/R...which is exactly what happens. You should fold it.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I always like to look at these things from the other player's point of view.

Hand 1: I'm calling a raise, out of position in what is going to be HU play. I'm probably on a high-ish pair, maybe suited paint. I see the flop and get some piece of it (or figure I still have the best hand). I'm pretty sure the PF raiser is going to bet, so I figure it's a good time for a check-raise. He bets, I raise...I'm pretty sure I have him beat. So, yeah, you should fold it here.

I agree that AK is hard to play, but it gets easier if you accept the fact that (depending on table read/position/relative position) you're going to have to fold it when the flop misses you, I think you're on the right track.

Hand 2: I'm in the SB, there are three people in ahead of me and I can complete and feel pretty sure the BB will check. I do so and see a cheap flop, which hits me pretty well so I bet out at it, figuring that if I make my draw on the turn I'll be in good shape for a C/R...which is exactly what happens. You should fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but seeing what from the other's point of view? what are you holding? they don't play like you, so you have to have some basis of putting them on a hand and what actions they like to do with certain hands.

Hand #1: he hasn't played many hands- tight player preflop, but we have no basis for his postflop play much less his HU play. maybe he's watched you and thinks you're tight and easy push off, who knows.

Hand #2: while i agree fold, what if he's not drawing. maybe he has A8 or 83. will he bet a straight draw? or maybe he has trips and decides to play this way.

your analysis doesn't allow for a range of hands but seems to say, "this is the hand i think he has, this is the way i'd play that hand, and since he played it that way, that's what he must have".

[jaxUp]

How about a flop fold in hand 2?

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I always like to look at these things from the other player's point of view.

Hand 1: I'm calling a raise, out of position in what is going to be HU play. I'm probably on a high-ish pair, maybe suited paint. I see the flop and get some piece of it (or figure I still have the best hand). I'm pretty sure the PF raiser is going to bet, so I figure it's a good time for a check-raise. He bets, I raise...I'm pretty sure I have him beat. So, yeah, you should fold it here.

I agree that AK is hard to play, but it gets easier if you accept the fact that (depending on table read/position/relative position) you're going to have to fold it when the flop misses you, I think you're on the right track.

Hand 2: I'm in the SB, there are three people in ahead of me and I can complete and feel pretty sure the BB will check. I do so and see a cheap flop, which hits me pretty well so I bet out at it, figuring that if I make my draw on the turn I'll be in good shape for a C/R...which is exactly what happens. You should fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more likely villian was thinking "let me take a bluff at this on the flop" in Hand #1. Either that or he has A,8. Chosing to continue with AK is certainly situational, but J,J,8 is a pretty good flop for AK when you're playing HU. Calling the C/R and folding the turn without a read here is terrible.
I can't quibble with your Hand #2 analysis. I've never come across anybody who trap c/r'd anything but a monster into a large field.

[SlantNGo]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. That's a very coordinated board and our hand is on the bottom side of marginal.

[ QUOTE ]
How about a flop fold in hand 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]

yeah, but seeing what from the other's point of view? what are you holding? they don't play like you, so you have to have some basis of putting them on a hand and what actions they like to do with certain hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I get your point. I guess the only thing I would say in this case is that I don't have any indication that they don't play like me. I would tend to, when having very little info on a player's style, probably lean towards assuming they know what they're doing. Given that, I would put this guy on a limited range of hands, i.e. mid-to-high pairs or high suited cards.

That said, one of the things I'm trying to reconcile for my own play is balancing reads on other players with math of the hand when making decisions. I tend to give more credit to the hand math than I do to my reads, in part because I'm not confident I'm that good at reading people yet and in part because (to paraphrase WLLHE) "Even maniacs get KK once in a while".

[Ric]

Looking at the hand, I was wondering the same thing, so I looked if I had any other notes on the player, and I had 'bet/call KJ on 89Q, check/call 8 turn'. Sorry about leaving that out earlier, I forgot I had that.

As for the results, I folded in hand 1, although thinking about it more I like a call better due to pot/implied odds. I can't convince myself yet to call AK to showdown unimproved yet, if I do I'm the one betting.

For hand 2, I tried raising to protect against overcards, but that didn't work out too well. The 8 didn't seem like a scare card, so I tried again and we see how that turned out. I folded here as well, MP1 called and folded a 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif river to SB's bet. In a later hand, SB took the exact same line in this hand (from SB coincidentally) with a flopped straight, so it seems 53/75 is most likely.