Passive play correct here?

[NateDog]

Reads are not really relevant to this hand. I had been raising quite a bit from LP, so I'm probably not getting too much respect in this spot.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

I can't raise here, as blowing away the field won't help. My equity is large, and I want bets going into the pot.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds.

I want overcalls.

River: (9.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River probably killed my chance for a raise, but hey, he'll raise me with J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[Duerig]

I like every street. Nice hand.

[Bradyams]

I raise the turn, and hope that one of the overcallers picked up a hand as well on the turn.

I think you can expect atleast one of the overcallers to fold, so if you raise you might get one cold-caller, and the original bettor will call.

[Firefly]

Yuck, awful relative position.
Reads do help here though, are these players likely to call two-cold on the flop? If so, then the flop play should have been raise, but if not, I like your flop line.
I think we should raise the turn....You'll blow away stuff like a T, but you never know if the guys behind you will call....I dunno. Raise is my default play here.
River is obvious

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads are not really relevant to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say they're very relevant. I'd want to know if at least one of the players after me would call 2 on that flop with TP or overcards.

At any rate, I raise this flop. If you get a couple of callers, you tie them to the pot. If not, you weren't getting much more money out of them anyway, when you make your hand. Stop sweating the little stuff and finish off the hand.

[handsome]

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, if you're not getting respect, those suckers will call two cold. I can't believe you only won 10BB here. Raise the flop, turn and river for value.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, if you're not getting respect, those suckers will call two cold. I can't believe you only won 10BB here. Raise the flop, turn and river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use the 'first available' method of table selection. Table was 17/2. I left shortly thereafter.

[ArturiusX]

I think I raise this flop, there's plenty of draws in it that'll have people call 2 cold (draws that aren't nearly as good as yours), so I don't think you have to worry about that.

Plus you'll get more action on the turn, because hell, who raises a flush draw like this on the flop?

[popeye18]

I think i call this flop as you did. Im not so sure that just calling the turn is so bad, it just didnt work out. I think calling and raising this turn are pretty close.

[xenthebrain]

Since you are drawing to the nut straight and nut there is no need to protect your hand in this kinda small pot. You could raise to buy yo some A and K outs, but you rather want a big pot with your strong draws. Going for overcalls here is correct IMO.

[SippinSoma]

Perfect.

[Matt Jenko]

I would raise flop. 2 reasons.
a: 1 cold caller after you gets same amount of bets in as 1 folder if you call and there is the also the flop bettor to call as well.
b: it disguises your hand if the flush or J comes. action will slow if you raise when that 3rd club falls if you have been calling along more so that if you have represented a made hand earlier.

Crafty play at this level, whilst good thoughtful poker, rarely gets as much money as brute force in my experience.

[SlantNGo]

I would still raise the flop. Only good things can happen:

1. Get a couple of folds and perhaps clean up your overcard outs in the process.

2. Those idiots call 2 cold anyways, and you just got more value for your draw.

[McGahee]

That's not passive that's good poker going for overcalls. NH

[chris_a]

I think the flop play is really close. Both sentiments (raise for value cause they'll call anyway and go for overcalls) seem close.

On the turn you should be raising. In general, when you have the nuts, you need a really good reason not to raise, since raising just simply has the opportunity to get more money in the pot while checking/calling doesn't. Think about what possible hands are going to make the average Party 0.5/1.0 player call one bet but fold two... Do you think those hands are likely?

Again close, but not as close as the flop.

I personally would have raised the turn just because you're virtually guaranteed to get another bet from the original better on this street and probably a lot of the hands that are calling the turn bet are going to call two cold on the turn.

[Reqtech]

I raise the flop here. You raised preflop, so this might be expected from the rest of the field. The pot is already big, so they will be more likely to call. It also helps to disguise your hand.

When the /images/graemlins/club.gif comes down on the turn, you are effectively handcuffed to calling since raising broadcasts that you made a flush. If you had raised the flop, your flush isn't so apparent. You may have also gotten more action from MP2.

[davelin]

Grunching...

Flop - Sometimes I want to raise to increase my chances of winning if I spike the single A or K. I don't hate calling and I think I would probably do the same.

Turn - Easy raise, anyone drawing is not going to call bets on the river if they don't hit.

[flair1239]

I think on the flop you are worrying too much about losing customers. The board is highly coordinated. With (4) other players in (probably a couple Loose-passives; BTW reads are relevant here.), I think you can count on callers.

Look at it this way. There are 11SB in the pot. MP2 makes it 12SB. The pot is already large (you built it PF). Furthermore, your raise will make it 14sb, you will be presenting the field with 7-1 pot odds. People will call with TP, a gutshot, MP, straight draw, smaller flush draw.

You are right about your equity being large. You are wrong about blowing away the field. Furthermore there are a couple hands you actually would not mind seeing fold (A5, KT, AT..etc). Anyway I think you missed some bets on the flop. If you had raised the flop, the pot would be so big on the turn, that you could bet and raise with impunity and probably still get calls.

[wyoak]

flop going for overcalls = good.
turn going for overcalls = bad.
like I said in another thread, you've only got two potential overcallers here, both of whom have checked already. Raising here yields the same amount of bets as calling and having one of the two fold, and having both fold to your call is an unmitigated disaster.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you are drawing to the nut straight and nut there is no need to protect your hand in this kinda small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is not small. It is 11sb. This is a big pot.

[HajiShirazu]

Easy flop raise. Either they call two cold which is good, or they fold which is also good in this big pot since it might clean up some outs.

[droolie]

I raise the flop. This is one of those sucky situations where betting might blow out the field but you won't get that much from checking either so you might as well maximize your chances of winning the pot.

Your A and K outs are tainted as they could give someone a str8. Raising can clean those up and make anybody who has the gutshot incorrect to call. And this is party so they will probably call. You also conceal the fact that you are on a flush draw which will help you when the flush hits. Sometimes someone will try to bluff you and you can score a very nice pot. Raising the flop might also build a bigger pot. If you get a couple CCers you might get to cap it. You also might get a free card.

[chris_a]

[ QUOTE ]
When the /images/graemlins/club.gif comes down on the turn, you are effectively handcuffed to calling since raising broadcasts that you made a flush. If you had raised the flop, your flush isn't so apparent. You may have also gotten more action from MP2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the goal to hide your flush? or to make more money from your flush??

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]


Is the goal to hide your flush? or to make more money from your flush??

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your question mutually exclusive?

[chris_a]

Are hiding your hand and making money always directly correlated? Does hiding your hand always override betting or raising for value? Does it in this case?

[Aaron W.]

Read this (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=1284998&amp;page=&amp; view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=) and think about this hand. Raising to clean up outs here is about as bad as you can possibly get.

[SlantNGo]

Are you saying raising specifically for the purpose of cleaning up outs is bad or that a raise here is bad, period?

[car ramrod]

I would raise the flop. You will probably get coldcalled anyway. The flop is only 1SB, so even with a raise people are more willing to call a flop raise then a turn raise.
I would also raise the turn.

[Shillx]

Raising to clean up outs here is about as bad as you can possibly get.

Nah. The board is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Let's say that we are up against two other opponents.

Player 1: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Player 2: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero: A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

It would be very beneficial to knock out player 2. If we can't do so, our king "outs" will give him a straight. If we can get rid of him, we pick up an extra 3 outs which is huge when the pot is big. Another example...

Player 1: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Player 2: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

If we can knock out player 2, we pick up an extra 2 outs in this pot. We can win with a king/jack//images/graemlins/club.gif, but if we can get rid of the A5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif we collect extra outs for spiking an ace. Very useful when the pot is big.

Brad

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
Are hiding your hand and making money always directly correlated? Does hiding your hand always override betting or raising for value? Does it in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was asking you. I find it much less likely that the players following him would call 2 turn bets cold than 2 flop bets, unless they also made a flush.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to clean up outs here is about as bad as you can possibly get.

Nah. The board is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Let's say that we are up against two other opponents.

Player 1: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Player 2: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero: A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

It would be very beneficial to knock out player 2. If we can't do so, our king "outs" will give him a straight. If we can get rid of him, we pick up an extra 3 outs which is huge when the pot is big. Another example...

Player 1: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Player 2: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

If we can knock out player 2, we pick up an extra 2 outs in this pot. We can win with a king/jack//images/graemlins/club.gif, but if we can get rid of the A5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif we collect extra outs for spiking an ace. Very useful when the pot is big.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention any old backdoor draw. This pot is getting big let's try to win it.

I think the value of going for single SB overcalls is way overrated on the flop. Too often the pot does not grow much anyways and you wind up losing to someone who wouldv'e folded. The value you get by seeking overcallers is lost by losing the entire pot. Too many bad players will overcall with crappy hands incorrectly on the flop for 1SB but then be correct to call the turn when they pickup more outs. If you need more money in the pot don't go for 1SB overcalls make them make bigger mistakes by calling two cold (many will) and when they still suckout on you so be it. I say make them make big mistakes to win suckout as often as possible. Cleaning up overcards when the pot is big is not a mistake when you consider that you will bloat the pot in the process and often win far more pots and bigger pots to boot.

More fun with cleaning overcards (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2148286&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=7&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[Shillx]

I totally agree. We shoudn't raise this flop with out cleansing in mind. We should raise this flop for VALUE and root for people to coldcall. I'm not raising this flop with the intention of folding out someone holding KT or AJ. I actually don't really mind if they call becuase I have 12 to the nuts. However, if they do fold it also works for the hero. CLEAR flop raise. It isn't even close.

Brad

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying raising specifically for the purpose of cleaning up outs is bad or that a raise here is bad, period?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of reasons to raise, but to drive out Ax and Kx that paired the board and the AJ gutshot isn't by itself much of a reason to raise. You spend an extra SB to buy AT MOST 3 outs -- 6% equity --ONLY when someone has one of those hands. A quick count yields 18 Ax hands, 18 Kx hands, and 8 AJ hands. It would be different if you had A5s or K9s and could get extra hands like A9 to fold.

Raising here, on such a draw-happy board, is good for value because you have a much better draw than them. You raise and hope to get cold-calls from those draws which have fewer outs than normal (KJ has only 6 outs for his OESD+overcard instead of the 10 he usually gets).

(I miscounted the bets this morning when I had my original post. For some reason, I had counted a raise as giving 9:1 odds, not 7:1. This means it isn't quite as bad as I made it out to be because you can actually effectively shut out more hands than I initially thought. But this does not negate my point.)