baseball scoring question

[Josh W]

Runner on 3rd, zero or one out. You hit a deep fly ball that gets dropped by the outfielder. Deep fly ball. DEEP.

Guy drops it, runner on third walks home, obviously.

You reach on an error, obviously. But are you 0 for 1 in this atbat, or 0 for 0? If the ball was caught, you'd be 0-0.

I see good arguments for both ways, but not sure as to what the actual rulebook states. Wondering if anybody here knows...

Josh

[JTG51]

0-0 with a sac fly and an RBI.

[Josh W]

Thats what you think it IS or SHOULD BE? how sure are you?

Thanks,

J

[ThaSaltCracka]

I believe both are 0-0, if its with an error, then no RBI, if its the sac fly, then an RBI.

[ThaSaltCracka]

actually wait, with an error, it should be 0-1, no RBI.

[Beerfund]

[ QUOTE ]
actually wait, with an error, it should be 0-1, no RBI.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how it is and should be.

[Vince Young]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually wait, with an error, it should be 0-1, no RBI.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tdarko]

you are wrong, you cannot assume a sac fly. you are 0-1.

if there is a runner on 1st and 3rd and the batter hits a sharp groundball to the shortstop and he steps on second and has the batter out by a mile at first but throws in 4 rows deep out of play it is an earned run for the pitcher since you cannot assume a double play.

[JTG51]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats what you think it IS or SHOULD BE? how sure are you?

Thanks,

J

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an uneducated guess. Looks like it's wrong though. I tried to sound confident just in case I was right.

[JTG51]

[ QUOTE ]
...you cannot assume a sac fly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was guessing, so I don't doubt you.

That rule is even dumber than not assuming a double play. How can the defense making an error cost the batter? It doesn't make any sense.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]

That rule is even dumber than not assuming a double play. How can the defense making an error cost the batter? It doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah there is some luck involved in this game.

[PhatTBoll]

According to the Sporting News:

[ QUOTE ]
In 1908, the sacrifice fly was introduced, crediting the batter with a sacrifice fly only if a runner scores after the ball is caught. The following year, a provision was added to allow the scorer to award a sacrifice fly even if the ball is dropped for an error if the scorer believes that the runner would have scored. Beginning in 1926, the batter was credited with a sacrifice fly is "any runner advances after the catch." In 1931, the "awarding of sacrifice flies is abolished." For one season in 1939, the sac fly returns, but is eliminated again in 1940.

The sacrifice rule returns for good in 1954. "Also score a sacrifice if, with less than two out, the batter hits a fair fly ball which is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or is dropped for an error, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment, the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught."

In 1975, the rule was altered to include foul fly balls as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like the batter gets credit for a sac after all.

Link (http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/trends/157576.html)

[tdarko]

rules have changed since then but if you can link me to this happening in a big league game then i will have learned something new today.

two years in a minor league game this happened and the hitter was credited an AB but of course minor leagues are sketchy with stats.

[The Stranger]

Rule 10.8

(e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
if there is a runner on 1st and 3rd and the batter hits a sharp groundball to the shortstop and he steps on second and has the batter out by a mile at first but throws in 4 rows deep out of play it is an earned run for the pitcher since you cannot assume a double play.

[/ QUOTE ]

that run would be unearned. you can't assume the double play, but you can assume the out at first in that situation. if the SS tosses to 2B and the 2B drops it, then you don't assume the double play, since the first out wasn't recorded. the runner at second is "unearned" b/c he should have been out on the flip from SS, but the batter is "earned", since you can't assume the double play.

on the other example, i think you're 0-1, but i'd have to think about it. i'd guess you can't just assume the runner on third would score (or even attempt to score, you never know) think Cecil Fielder vs. Vlad's arm

[The Dude]

tdarko, the rule about never assuming a double play has nothing to do with the question. The batter would be credited with a sac fly and an RBI. In fact, this exact situation came up in a Dodgers game already this year (it was in their home opener, I believe).

[LotsOfOuts69]

Remember, this is the sport where if there are 2 outs and no one on, and you hit a dribbler back to the pitcher, and he throws it into the stands, and then proceeds to give up 20 straight homeruns, he gets no earned runs on his record.
Even despite the fact that it was HIS error.

[FishNChips]

he gets the rbi? I was under the belief that an error nullifies the rbi, but I hadn't thought of this situation specifically.

interesting question.

[Voltron87]

So does anyone know whether the run was earned or unearned?

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is the sport where if there are 2 outs and no one on, and you hit a dribbler back to the pitcher, and he throws it into the stands, and then proceeds to give up 20 straight homeruns, he gets no earned runs on his record.
Even despite the fact that it was HIS error.

[/ QUOTE ]

As it should be. Earned runs and ERA are basic measures of pitching ability. The fact that he threw the ball into the stands had to do with his defensive ability, and nothing to do with his pitching ability.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
0-0 with a sac fly and an RBI.

[/ QUOTE ]

As usual, the first answer is the correct answer.

[Voltron87]

and an error for the outfielder. I would assume if it is an RBI is is a earned run. That is the part which confuses me, whether the run is earned or unearned.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is the sport where if there are 2 outs and no one on, and you hit a dribbler back to the pitcher, and he throws it into the stands, and then proceeds to give up 20 straight homeruns, he gets no earned runs on his record.
Even despite the fact that it was HIS error.

[/ QUOTE ]

As it should be. Earned runs and ERA are basic measures of pitching ability. The fact that he threw the ball into the stands had to do with his defensive ability, and nothing to do with his pitching ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but when he makes the error, which should of been the 3rd out, and then gives up 20 straight HRs, the HRs don't even count against him. hows that for pitching ability.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is the sport where if there are 2 outs and no one on, and you hit a dribbler back to the pitcher, and he throws it into the stands, and then proceeds to give up 20 straight homeruns, he gets no earned runs on his record.
Even despite the fact that it was HIS error.

[/ QUOTE ]

As it should be. Earned runs and ERA are basic measures of pitching ability. The fact that he threw the ball into the stands had to do with his defensive ability, and nothing to do with his pitching ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but when he makes the error, which should of been the 3rd out, and then gives up 20 straight HRs, the HRs don't even count against him. hows that for pitching ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

The out, that should'VE been the third out, would've ended the inning, and those 20 batters would've never gotten to the plate.

If a guy misses a free throw but an opponent was in the lane early, it doesn't count as a missed free throw.

If a QB gets intercepted but there was defensive holding on the opposite side of the field where he wasn't even looking, it doesn't count as an interception.

Following along? You can keep up if you try.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume if it is an RBI is is a earned run. That is the part which confuses me, whether the run is earned or unearned.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's an earned run, but not necessarily because there's an RBI. The official scorer will, at the end of the inning, try to determine if the run would have scored without the error. For example, if it's a fly ball to shallow right field, the hoser drops it and the run scores - but the scorer determines that it was not deep enough for a sac fly. The batter is 0-1, and the runner scored on an error. But the next batter comes up and hits a single. The run is now earned, even though nobody gets an RBI - even without the error the runner would have scored on the single.

When figuring whether a run is earned or unearned, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the pitcher - as a rule. For example, if it's not obvious sac fly range, the runner wouldn't score. A runner is never assumed to score from second on a single. (For example, with two outs and a runner on second, the catcher is charged with a passed ball [error]. The runner advances to third, then scores when the batter hits a single. The next batter is put out to end the inning. This run was unearned, even if the single was such that everybody knows the runner would have scored from second.)

[Randy_Refeld]

There are a lot of posts so I am sure somebody got it right, but the first few responces were wrong. The correct way to score it is SF, RBI, batter reaches on an error. Batter is 0-0.

[JTG51]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of posts so I am sure somebody got it right, but the first few responces were wrong. The correct way to score it is SF, RBI, batter reaches on an error. Batter is 0-0.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed one of the first few.

[Voltron87]

Good post. Makes sense.