i can see his cards

[dark_horse]

so i'm playing at this $65 Taj MTT i posted about earlier, and i'm moved when we're down to 3 tables. i'm seated next to a young asian kid to my right who seems a bit inexperienced. after a few hands i begin to notice... i can see his cards when he looks at them! i think most players wouldn't say anything but i did feel bad. but it didn't stop me from taking advantage of this new, very powerful edge. wearing a baseball cap, it was easy to tilt my head down so the others at the table couldn't see where my eyes were pointed. i could see how he played, and poorly he did. he'd limp in with broadway trash only to fold when raised PF. i was waiting for my opportunity, and then it happened. blinds were 3k/6k and i must have had about 55k. he probably had the same. i'm in the BB and it's folded around to him in the SB. he looks down at 52o. he raises to 20k. i look down at A7o.

i'm faced with two choices. move in and take the pot. i know he's folding. or.... call. hope to god the flop doesn't hit him, and let him continue the bluff? i just moved in because i wanted the free round and his raise. i suspect most would move in as well. but afterwards i was wondering if a call would have been a good move.

do you tell him to protect his hand? i couldn't do it!

[willie]

meh, it's slightly unethical but whatever

i've done it before and i definitely consider it a players responsiblity to protect their hand and how they view it.

[mts]

would you do the same thing if you had 23o?

i wouldnt tell him either. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[dark_horse]

would you do the same thing if you had 23o?

Any two.

And yes, it's the player's responsibility to protect his hand. From the dealer mucking it to his neighbor catching a glimpse.

[2005]

The generally accepted course of action in this situation is to tell him and then if it continues to occur, use it to your advantage as much as possible. What you are doing is quite unethical, but hard to avoid.

Gavin

[SossMan]

dude, it's a $65 tournament. is that how cheap your integrity is?

Personally, I would only do this in a 10k tourney, because if someone doesn't protect their hand in that big a buy-in, then they have too much money and some of it should be mine.

Oh, and I would have called preflop there everytime. If he's willing to bluff preflop, you may very well get him to bluff at you again on the flop when he's drawing near dead.

[dark_horse]

i wouldn't say he was drawing near dead. he did have two live cards.

[CardSharpCook]

I believe that this action is "wrong". And I believe that you know it is wrong. At the very least it is dishonorable. But, people have said the same about some of my poker ethics, so do as you will. I may need to cheat to get an edge over my opponent, but I would never do it. If he is better than me, then I must learn and become better than him.

CSC

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, it's a $65 tournament. is that how cheap your integrity is?

Personally, I would only do this in a 10k tourney

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that how cheap your integrity is?

I'd have told him that I could see his cards at some point, but regardless of whether this was the first time or the nth time I'd seen them, I'd use the knowledge to my full advantage. You have an ethical obligation to yourself.

[RandomUser]

Here's a question for those that think this is so wrong.

Suppose you had a 'tell' on someone that was 100% accurate.

Would you let them know about it? Or would you continue to use it against them to their detriment.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for those that think this is so wrong.

Suppose you had a 'tell' on someone that was 100% accurate.

Would you let them know about it? Or would you continue to use it against them to their detriment.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a different scenario. Your hole cards are intended to be confidential information, whereas a tell is not. If the player accidentally exposing his hole cards has acted in good faith attempting to conceal them, then you have an ethical dilemma as to what to do. The tell does not create this dilemma, since there is no conflict of moral principles when you observe someone's tell.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for those that think this is so wrong.

Suppose you had a 'tell' on someone that was 100% accurate.

Would you let them know about it? Or would you continue to use it against them to their detriment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice try, but different ballgame. Tells come from either our skill or their lack of skill. Trying to see a players hand may be a skill, but it is not a pokerskill. Same with hiding your hand - Skill, yes, poker skill, no.

What skills do you want to use to beat your opponent?

I'm tall, 6'3". I play basketball. Sometimes in pick-up games I am up against a 5'9" guy. When this is the case, I turn to my soft forward skills, and forget my center skills. Why? Because I don't want to use my center skills to pick on some short guy. It is cheap and dishonorable. True, the dishonor of using certain basketball skills to beat a basketball player is very different from peaking at another players hand in cards, but maybe you can start to see how honor works?

CSC

[adanthar]

I would move in solely because I'd feel better about it since that would have been my default move if I didn't see his hand /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for those that think this is so wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The major source of wrongness/unfairness here is that the information that you are getting is not information that is available to everybody. I may be wrong, but I think for this reason it's also against the rules in many situations to show your hand to one other specific player; if you show one person, you're supposed to show them all.

By contrast, the information that you use to puzzle out tells is information that is freely available to everybody. Not everybody will necessarily be able to interpret it successfully, but it's there for them to try.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that how cheap your integrity is?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

(sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet)

[ QUOTE ]
You have an ethical obligation to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

it must be nice to have this handy slice of logic to justify all sorts of behavior in your life

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is that how cheap your integrity is?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

(sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet)

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not sarcasm exactly. I'm trying to point out that you sound a bit silly making that same comment to someone then identifying yourself as doing the same thing under higher stakes circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have an ethical obligation to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

it must be nice to have this handy slice of logic to justify all sorts of behavior in your life

[/ QUOTE ]
It must be nice in yours too, unless you've given everything to helping others. Self-interested behaviour is ethically supported unless there is another conflicting moral principle.

[dark_horse]

If he keeps flashing his cards and I can see them I'll continue to look until he corrects the problem and I'll continue to use the advantage without saying a word. I don't think it's immoral. He needs to protect his hand.

[LethalRose]

yea, I dont have any sympathy for ignorant people. If anything I tell him after the tournament I could occassionaly see 1 of his cards. but thats ify..

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
If he keeps flashing his cards and I can see them I'll continue to look until he corrects the problem and I'll continue to use the advantage without saying a word. I don't think it's immoral. He needs to protect his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, what is immoral is that you are the only person in a position to use this advantage. That's what is bad about it. (EDIT: To make it more clear, the problem isn't so much that he suffers for his mistake, but that only you, and not everybody else, gain from this scenario.)

I think Gavin has the right idea. Tell him he needs to protect his cards, but if he screws up and you see them, you obviously can't pretend like you didn't.

[GoldenHorde]

For me it comes down to the person, if they are obviously inexperienced and just learning the game or if it is an older person with a vision impairment, I will tell them every time. If the person is drunk, should know better, or just an ass I will ruthlessly use it to my advantage.

All that being said call and see a flop assuming stacks are fairly deep you have a great chance to make alot more money of this hand.

[dark_horse]

[ QUOTE ]
All that being said call and see a flop assuming stacks are fairly deep you have a great chance to make alot more money of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stacks were not deep. Blinds were 3k/6k and we each had about 55k. Moving in was probably the only play. And yeah, I'd have done that anyway. I like your "depends on the person" criteria. That works for me.

[yecul]

Personally I'd say "watch your cards" or something. I'd just rather win with only seeing my hole cards and not what others have.

This is very different from tells.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All that being said call and see a flop assuming stacks are fairly deep you have a great chance to make alot more money of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stacks were not deep. Blinds were 3k/6k and we each had about 55k. Moving in was probably the only play. And yeah, I'd have done that anyway. I like your "depends on the person" criteria. That works for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you still see the flop. You WILL know if you can call his AI bluff. This is an obvious chance to easily absorb a stack. You blew it. Failed as a decent human being, failed as a poker player. I hope you work on the first before the second. But I guess that depends on your priorities.

CSC

[Pat Southern]

I smooth call here, you're in position so you'll be able to pick off a bluff by him if he misses, or if he hits and you dont, easily fold, without worrying about giving a free card.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

you still see the flop. You WILL know if you can call his AI bluff. This is an obvious chance to easily absorb a stack. You blew it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think is so straightforward. Say he'll fold every time if you push over the top, which is what the OP assumed. Then pushing nets you +26K - your BB, and his chips. Now calling costs you 14K. He's going to hit on the flop basically 33% of the time, and of those you're going to hit as well about 25% of the time. So, factoring that in, 25% of the time you're going to have to fold and eat 14K. Now let's say he has two approaches the remaining 75% of the time: bluff on the flop, or put no more money in for the rest of the hand. Let's make the bad assumption that if he bluffs, you win 100% of the time. How often would he need to bluff there before you make profit? We'll follow the original poster and assume he has another 35k behind.

.25 * -14 + .75 (x * 61 + (1 - x) * 26) is your expected value, given this model, where x is the percentage of the time that he bluffs. It works out that he needs to bluff somewhere near 39% of the time that the flop misses him to make it profitable. (EDIT: To make it clear, I mean profitable relative to taking the pot away PF.) However, as soon as one stops assuming the bluff always loses, the percentage will increase substantially, because you stand to lose a lot if you do lose after calling the bluff. I'm guessing you'd probably want to be at least 50% sure he was bluffing to make up for this because you're busted if you get unlucky, so you probably want a substantially higher chip edge to make up for it.

So, if you're confident that he'll bluff if the flop misses him, then go ahead and see the flop. If you're unsure and don't really have a good idea, bet now and take it away.

[ChipFish]

I wouldn't say a word.
By sitting at the table, this player is trying to take my money.
I am trying to take his.
If I win his money by playing good poker, well then great.
If I win his money because he isn't covering his cards, well even better, makes my job that much easier.

By sitting at a poker table, it is up to you to understand all of the rules and how to protect yourself.
Since this player was unaware of how to protect his cards, then he simply should not have been sitting at that table.

It's his own fault, I won't tell him how to play smarter, and it does NOT make me a bad person.
I am not responsible for how another person chooses to play his cards, knowingly or not.

[pryor15]

call. if he hits the flop as low pair, then tell him you can see his 52o and push.

not b/c i at all think this is ethical or good karma or anything (i'm not even sure it's allowed everywhere), i'd just love to see his face as he tries to decide what to do. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nalapoint1]

The word you are looking for is INTEGRITY. Some of us have and some dont.

[sloth469]

I got one for you. Live NL ring hand on the river when a 3rd club fell, I have top pair weak kicker, $95 in the pot, 3 players in I'm last to act. First player pushes for his last $100, 2nd player folds, I'm about to follow suit when all-in player inadvertantly flashes me his cards. OMG I know my top pair is good.

Mr. Integrity, do you still fold and let him have it even though you know you are good?

-sloth

[ononimo]

Tells are conceivably visible to the entire table - it's up to the individual player to interpret them correctly.

Your opponent's hole cards, however, are visible only to you (and him) - thereby giving you an unfair advantage.

[Tim H]

take the edge and call.
It's not your responsibility to protect his hand

[brashbrother]

Drive-by post alert.

The answer is simple, to me. You are suffering from a lack of moral character if you see this as "part of the game," or "he should know better," or any other lame excuse to allow yourself to profit from cheating.

And yes, it is cheating, not only according to Robert's Rules (an exposed hand is dead), but also because it provides an unfair advantage over other players. (Not just the chap who is showing you, but the others at the table who cannot see his cards).

So the question is not so much, should I tell him I can see his cards...the question is, "should I cheat?"

Only you can answer this one for yourself.

[Tim H]

it's not cheating ... it is a players responsibility to protect his hand not yours.

I think there's even a section on this in "Improve Your Poker"

[brashbrother]

So, it's my repsonsibility to lock my car and not leave my laptop in the front seat, so if anyone takes it, sorry, my bad, that ain't stealing...

[Tim H]

not having played in B&M tourney:
will you get kicked out of the tourney if it is found out you can see/have been looking at someones cards

if the answer is NO then it is an apples and oranges argument

[brashbrother]

so they're both fruit, what's your point...

Bot scenarios have something that belongs to one person (info in one, property in another) that is meant only for that person to use/see. If you don't protect your info/property, does that change its ownership?

Think about it. If the dealer is dealing you your cards, first is an ace, you casually notice, then the second card is on its way, and oops, it flips over...another ace. Do you have the option to say, no, I will take that I don't mind if others see...

Nope, sorry, it was exposed and is now dead. Exposed cards are dead, period. You are cheating.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for those that think this is so wrong.

Suppose you had a 'tell' on someone that was 100% accurate.

Would you let them know about it? Or would you continue to use it against them to their detriment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you cannot distinguish between apples and oranges. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
wearing a baseball cap, it was easy to tilt my head down so the others at the table couldn't see where my eyes were pointed

[/ QUOTE ]

Others consider it unethical or dishonorable when you can accidentally see your opponents cards. But to PURPOSELY TILT YOUR HEAD to take advantage of the situation?

That is plain and simple CHEATING in my lingo. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jax_Grinder]

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, it is cheating, not only according to Robert's Rules (an exposed hand is dead)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure this is applicable in this situation. If it was, why couldn't you just jump up and say "I saw his cards! He has 52o! They're exposed so they are dead! Gimme those chips!"?

On the base issue of alerting someone that they are not properly protecting their hand, I lean toward the noobs get a warning, rounders get squat analysis.

And not to belabor the point, but poker is entirely a game of deception - to suggest that extending that deception to its natural conclusion is "unethical" is inherently illogical. To me, collusion is the only unforgiveable sin in poker. Everything else can be protected against by an attentive and disciplined player.

[brashbrother]

Good point about the exposed hand, there are some occasions where exposed cards are not dead...

I stand by my assertion that secretly and purposefully discovering another player's hole cards is just cheating...

Accidentally seeing them during a single hand is not grounds to declare his hand dead, as I originally implied.

[six_4off]

YEah Dude Weak! Cheating is like drugs, BAD! MMMMMkay?

[Sin Dee]

[ QUOTE ]
blinds were 3k/6k and i must have had about 55k. he probably had the same. he looks down at 52o. he raises to 20k. i look down at A7o.

i'm faced with two choices. but afterwards i was wondering if a call would have been a good move.

do you tell him to protect his hand? i couldn't do it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like the fact you actually were bending over to peek but since you did, you are then forced to do exactly what you did and he is an idiot to make a rookie mistake.

Poker is a game and your edge is part of the game when you can make proper decisions and to go all when he went in for 1/3 of his stack is the proper play.

If you both missed the flop and he pushed all in, you would be forced to call and a 2 on the river would have broke you.

Ethics are to be discussed after "the game" is over if you choose, but there are many times playing in live games where someone is so drunk, near sighted, or stupid to not protect their cards from the whole side of the table seeing them and nobody ever says anything (except the few people that cant see the cards).

As nice as a person is in real life, in poker you need to be willing to check raise your own mother to be able to keep the money to spend it on strippers and drugs or anything else she would hate or you will be a loser in the long run.

(by the way I will be at CHII all weekend so tip well)

[ChipFish]

[ QUOTE ]
The word you are looking for is INTEGRITY. Some of us have and some dont.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I follow you here.
If a hockey player was on a breakaway in ovetime of Game 7 for the Stanley Cup, and the goalie fell, are you saying that the player should wait until the goalie gets back up and is ready before continuing? Or should the player just roof it top corner?
This decision directly effects the players on both teams, so what is the difference here?
I think we both know that even Wayne Gretzky would take the gimmee goal.

If the player can't cover his cards and you aren't making an effort to see them, why wouldn't you use this knowledge?
I don't think this shows a lack of Integrity, and heck, if it does, than I don't have it.

[Knightmare44]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say a word.
By sitting at the table, this player is trying to take my money.
I am trying to take his.
If I win his money by playing good poker, well then great.
If I win his money because he isn't covering his cards, well even better, makes my job that much easier.

By sitting at a poker table, it is up to you to understand all of the rules and how to protect yourself.
Since this player was unaware of how to protect his cards, then he simply should not have been sitting at that table.

It's his own fault, I won't tell him how to play smarter, and it does NOT make me a bad person.
I am not responsible for how another person chooses to play his cards, knowingly or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hooray. My sentiments exactly. I'm not going to TRY to peek, but if they flash their cards to me - I'm not going to complain. Poker is a game of information, and the more the better. Sure it may be unhonorable, but we're playing for money, sometimes the difference between a large shake and a medium shake after playing. & I want the large!