Well Played?

[irishpint]

Concerned about the river call...and how would you play this up to that point? No strong reads, but also nothing ive seen in the 10 hands that screams 'newbie'.


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls.

River: (11.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 20.75 BB

[Reqtech]

Fold preflop.

[Shillx]

Looks like the BB has Ax /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Well played up until the 2nd river call. I don't make that call. You also have to consider that it might get capped behind you.

Brad

[Bradyams]

Muck this preflop.

Good flop and turn play. I don't think I'd call the two bets on the river.

[GoHoosiers]

Grunch-time.....

That river sucks ass.

I call it down too.


Rich

[fluxrad]

Blind read:

fold preflop. fold the river to the reraise. You're not good here NEARLY often enough.

[Redd]

Grunching.

Only thing I'd do differently is fold when it's 2 back to you on the river. There's a good chance you'll need to call a cap, and IMO you're not going to win 1 time in 7 here.

[GrunchCan]

Assuming the table is loose and passive, PF is fine.

[LoaferGee12]

Fold preflop. The first overcall on the river is fine as it sure looks like you'll often be splitting or losing to the bettor. I really don't see any plausible hands that MP3 raises the river with that you beat. BB's 3-bet just makes this fold easier.

[Arcturus]

I would fold pre-flop.

How come re-raising post-flop isn't correct? Wouldn't you assume that you are ahead here, especially with the high overcard?

[J_B]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold pre-flop.

How come re-raising post-flop isn't correct? Wouldn't you assume that you are ahead here, especially with the high overcard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, I sort of agree. What kind of bluff is this supposed to be. Either muck it preflop or raise it on a bluff. I think this is a case of WWYT.

If you play this UTG, what will you play in late position, any 2? What's your party name so I can add you to my buddy list /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

I don't mean to be too harsh, but if you normaly play like this you probably have some huge leaks in your game. Time to maybe read SSHE.

JB

[DeathDonkey]

Whatever you guys are way too tight. The only mistake hero made was calling the river the second time around. And I might think about slowplaying that flop, but I'm tricky like that.

There are plenty of Party 0.50/1 tables where that's a nice safe limp UTG.

-DeathDonkey

[irishpint]

I agree donkey. As for 'will i play any 2 suited late' my answer is no. but i will play Kxs if x&gt;5.

[Greg J]

Guys, this preflop call is okay at most .5/1 Party games. Folding is not that bad, and in multitable mode I will admit that I usually fold it. But I play a little tighter than optimal.

Flop raise = good. Flush draws will call anyhow, and while raising actually helps them, you have an equity edge over them. Plus, many people love to see the turn no matter what, and will cold call hoping to spike that A.

Laying down the river is correct here. It sucks though.

[Arcturus]

I'm sorry. I misread the hand. I thought MP3 raised and not HERO. My bad.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you guys are way too tight. The only mistake hero made was calling the river the second time around. And I might think about slowplaying that flop, but I'm tricky like that.

There are plenty of Party 0.50/1 tables where that's a nice safe limp UTG.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, I'd say the .5/1 table where this can't be limped UTG is the exception. I limp this often at 2/4, even.

I agree, there's a lot of tighness going on here.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I'd say the .5/1 table where this can't be limped UTG is the exception. I limp this often at 2/4, even.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it also an exception at 1/2 with a reasonably loose table?

[Greg J]

There are 1/2 tables where I fold this, or open raise in the hijack and beyond. Sometimes those 1/2 tables' total vpip is quite low (&lt;20 not unheard of). Different world (though still quite beatable).

[Roybert]

Terrible card on the river. Fold this preflop and fold to two back on the river.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the table is loose and passive, PF is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're my kind of guy, Grunch. (That's probably a bad thing though, eh?)

[mlb3zr]

I'm not calling this one preflop. (edit: but I am still working on increasing my VPIP)

I'd wait till the turn to raise this. let the rest of them in for one, you've got a great hand. besides, you've got position. if BB checks the turn, you can lead and not lose anything really.

the river call is no good. you really think that no one has an ace when it's 2 back to you? time to move on to the next hand.

[bottomset]

blind post

fold preflop unless the table is LP

flop is good
turn is good
fold the river when its 2bets to you

[SippinSoma]

Limping this hand UTG can get you in a lot of trouble. Most of the time you'll be OOP with a suited high card and will have trouble playing the entire hand.

When BB bets again, calling is fine, but I would fold when it's 2 cold back to you. MP3 will almost never bluff this after seeing you call, and BB's 3-bet says atleast one of them has you beat. Call for one, fold when it's two more.

[SippinSoma]

After reading the responses, I've come to agree that this preflop call is fine with the right table conditions. My lack of table selection earlier tonight must have influenced this.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping this hand UTG can get you in a lot of trouble. Most of the time you'll be OOP with a suited high card and will have trouble playing the entire hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will say that limping Kxs UTG does require good postflop skills to be +EV. You're not going to flop a flush draw every time. You need to know when TPMK is good, and when it needs to go in the muck.

If you aren't confident in your postflop game, this hand should be mucked PF UTG regardless of the types of opponents. But if this is you then you should be working on your postflop game. A poker player cannot live on nut hands alone.

[SippinSoma]

My advice was for OP, not how I play. I'm confident enough in my postflop skills to play a strong KXs from EP, but I don't think OP is at that point yet.

I agree with what you have said here though.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]


I agree, there's a lot of tightness going on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a pretty strong statement for wanting to fold K7s UTG.

[Roybert]

I don't want to doubt anyone who says that limping K7 UTG in a Party $0.50/$1.00 is ok (I'm a total N00B), but I'm curious ... does anyone have representative PT stats that show that limping K7 UTG is +EV?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
My advice was for OP, not how I play. I'm confident enough in my postflop skills to play a strong KXs from EP, but I don't think OP is at that point yet.

I agree with what you have said here though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I wasn't really talking directly to you. I was just kind of talking in general.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to doubt anyone who says that limping K7 UTG in a Party $0.50/$1.00 is ok (I'm a total N00B), but I'm curious ... does anyone have representative PT stats that show that limping K7 UTG is +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are Party .50/1 stats.

I've had K7s UTG 4 times, played it twice, and won with it once for a net of $3.50.

I've had K7s UTG+1 5 times, played it it 3 times, and won with it 2 times for a net of $5.00.

Granted this sample size is tiny but I thought I throw it out there anyways.

[Roybert]

No - it's worth including in the discussion, but I would like to see a bigger sample size.

[SippinSoma]

Alright, just checking. In which case I concur. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to doubt anyone who says that limping K7 UTG in a Party $0.50/$1.00 is ok (I'm a total N00B), but I'm curious ... does anyone have representative PT stats that show that limping K7 UTG is +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the last 20k hands at 2/4 I've had K7s UTG &amp; UTG+1 24 times, and won 4 times. Net = +$116. Too small a sample to judge the EV of a specific hand.

[SippinSoma]

I'm getting more and more interested in this math. With a sample twice that size, could you atleast conclude that your EV is positive with over 95% confidence?

[J_B]

I'm curious as to what other hands you like to bring in. if you are playing K7s UTG, what hands will you play from late position. This is of course keeping in mind the post flop skills.

JB

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what other hands you like to bring in. if you are playing K7s UTG, what hands will you play from late position. This is of course keeping in mind the post flop skills.

JB

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you're not asking me 'cause you don't want to know. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Roybert]

Yeesh - 24 times in 20K hands? I was hoping it would be more. For the sake of curiosity, how about K7s limping in positions 1-3?

[no1super2001]

[ QUOTE ]
nothing ive seen in the 10 hands that screams 'newbie'

[/ QUOTE ]

Only the part where you opened the pot.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting more and more interested in this math. With a sample twice that size, could you atleast conclude that your EV is positive with over 95% confidence?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never done the numbers for this sort of thing, but I seem to recall reading a few times that individual hand EVs never converge to a confident value after a reasonably large number of hands. I'm pretty sure we're talking millions of hands before each hand's EV in each position becomes significant. As a disclaimer: if you're really interested I'd check with the guys in probability because I'm only going off of my fuzzy memory.

[fflyer]

It's pointless just looking at how you do with this specific holding in judging the EV of limping UTG with this sort of hand. The issue is how you do with all the other garbage hands that you limp in with early. The fact that you might get lucky with K7s might not compensate for the times you get slaughtered when you limp with K8 or K6. To succeed with this sort of hand, you need to be pretty confident that you will get around five callers and that they hardly ever raise. Even then, you are in difficulties if you flop a King and no flush because of your table position. If that's the sort of table you get at Party Poker, I should maybe switch sites. These tables don't seem to exist at UB.

[cold_cash]

I'd switch if I were you.

[Roybert]

Yeah - this was the question I was trying (and failing) to ask. Well said.