Two hands that end up bad. Where did I go wrong? [Archive]

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MarzH05

04-20-2005, 06:27 PM

This is my first time posting, so I hope the converter works. Anyway, this is a Party Poker 50NL table. No real reads on the players. I am used to playing the 20+2 tournaments, and have been very successful. However, I wanted to start playing some ring games. I think that the main reason I do not win more than I do at ring games is because I do not push at the right times. Let me know what you guys think.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($25.75)
SB ($124)
BB ($59.35)
UTG ($50.5)
Hero ($59.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, Button calls $2.50, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($7) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $8, Button calls $8.

River: ($23) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

What do I do? Only read is that if I were outkicked on the King, I would have figured him to raise pf.

Second hand

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($32.95)
BB ($13.4)
Hero ($54.5)
Button ($63.47)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets $2, BB folds, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4.

Turn: ($13.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $10, SB calls $8.

River: ($33.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $16.45 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $49.95

Is this an automatic call even if I think i am beaten? Or should I have pushed on the flop?

mythrilfox

04-20-2005, 06:50 PM

Hand 1: this is the kind of situation you get yourself into when you open-limp KJs in MP. You have terrible position and no idea where you are. Fold it preflop. Your bet sizes are too large on flop and turn. Check/fold the river. He will check behind with anything you beat.

Hand 2: Preflop/flop are fine. Just call the turn and see what he does on the river. Try as hard as you can to fill up cause it looks awfully lot like a flush. You'd hate to raise to $10 here and have to call an all-in. As it is, the river is a pretty standard fold.

Rickyroodido

04-20-2005, 07:05 PM

I dont think its such a good idea to post more then one hand at a time. It tends to get a little messy after a couple of replies.

About the first hand:
I would play it the same way. Much of my profits comes from people who is chasing with Kx, or some flushdraw, in this type of hand. Perhaps KJ is a little to weak to make up for the overbet... but I think its OK. However this is a big difference from tournement play. At S&G you have to push with this type of hand (aspecially at level 4 and up), at NL 0.5 you should be more observant.

Seckond hand:
I like the play on the flop. Maybe you could have bet even more: 7 or 8, but its OK.
I dont like your turn bet because later on, on the river, your confused about his holding. It seems like your afraid of the flush and make somekind of rationalize to bet big. I would make a blocking bet of 6$ here. Because its the same as your reraise it wont seem to weak imo. If he pushes you stand alone. Got any read?

Rickyroodido

04-20-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: this is the kind of situation you get yourself into when you open-limp KJs in MP. You have terrible position and no idea where you are. Fold it preflop. Your bet sizes are too large on flop and turn. Check/fold the river. He will check behind with anything you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

To OP:
I meant, in my reply, that fast play of a probably best but marginal hands is good. This hand is not such. Its a could be best until he calls the flop, then it becomes a underdog.

Obliky

04-20-2005, 07:34 PM

I cant understand why no-ones suggested raising pre-flop with both of the hands posted...i do mainly play full ring games but i would raise pre-flop with both these hands short-handed.

Anyone give me any reasons not to raise pre-flop with both hands?

Rickyroodido

04-20-2005, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I cant understand why no-ones suggested raising pre-flop with both of the hands posted...i do mainly play full ring games but i would raise pre-flop with both these hands short-handed.

Anyone give me any reasons not to raise pre-flop with both hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt notice that it was 6max. Yeah I would raise both aswell.

mythrilfox

04-20-2005, 07:52 PM

Oh, I didn't even realize it was short-handed. In that case, yes, I would have raised both preflop. My advice with either hand doesn't really change, though.

MarzH05

04-20-2005, 08:53 PM

Sorry for the two hand post. I have seen it before, so I thought it was no problem.
First hand: So are you saying fold or raise with KJs in MP? It has been my experience that on this flop, you will more often than not get a Kx caller on the flop bet that will fold with pressure on the turn. I overbet it a little to chase out any draws. Once I bet the turn and he called, I was pretty sure he had 2 pair. On the River, I checked, he went all in, I folded. I wouldnt expect Kx to go all in on the river with that board.

Hand 2: So I guess I should have raised pf. With this textured of a flop, should I have just check called to the river after my flop bet? That just does not seem right for some reason.

edge

04-20-2005, 09:45 PM

I raise a lot of hands folded to me in CO or Button. Both of these certainly qualify.

Rickyroodido

04-21-2005, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the two hand post. I have seen it before, so I thought it was no problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont apologize to me! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif It was just my opinion.
It was a little rude of me to write "dont", sorry. I just tend to mix up things when its more then one hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
First hand: So are you saying fold or raise with KJs in MP? It has been my experience that on this flop, you will more often than not get a Kx caller on the flop bet that will fold with pressure on the turn. I overbet it a little to chase out any draws. Once I bet the turn and he called, I was pretty sure he had 2 pair. On the River, I checked, he went all in, I folded. I wouldnt expect Kx to go all in on the river with that board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise e´m preflop, 2-4 BB. On the flop I would estimate your equity worth a half to 0.75% flop bet. You are overprotecting with that overbet, EV-.
About the river allin. It depends, I would expect it from a moron but not from a sane man.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: So I guess I should have raised pf. With this textured of a flop, should I have just check called to the river after my flop bet? That just does not seem right for some reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stick with my piece of advice here, despite this being 6max. Well played on the flop, maybe even raise more (7-9$).
Make a blockreraise on the turn, I would make it the same as on the flop. That wont seem to weak imo. Check behind him if he checks the river, call a reasonable raise, fold to a push.