KK against a LAG

[BigEndian]

This was live, so from memory. This player was a LAG by most definitions but a good hand reader.

2/5 NL $500 Max

LAG $400
Me $720

One limper to me in MP and I make it $20 to go. Called by the LAG in the SB and the BB and the initial limper.

Flop: J82r

LAG bets $40. Folded to me, I call.

Turn: 5 - suit unimportant

LAG checks, I check.

River 9 - suit unimportant

LAG bets $100, I call.

Thoughts on any street?

- Jim

[TrailofTears]

This looks good to me. I like your line a lot.

-Trail

[integrate]

why no raises anywhere postflop?

[Rickyroodido]

What is a LAG?
Sorry about this question, but I se "LAG" on many posts and I have figured out that it is a player who calls big raises on a draw?!
Help me out please.

[theweatherman]

if it was me id throw a big raise on the flop, like 80 more or so. That way he pays to draw with his Jx, low pockets, etc. also just to figure out where you are in the hand. In my opinion you played this like you were afraid of him. I understand that he is LAG and that he will most likely bluff the pot later or continue to bet into you, but I feel letting him have control of the play with no idea of what hes got is too dangerous to give him two free cards.

[BigEndian]

I was baiting him.

I'm open to criticism on any street, but I think that if I was going to put in a raise it would be the river.

However,

a) this gives me no future streets to improve if I've made a mistake and no longer have the better hand
b) it's tough to get called by a hand I beat
c) I open myself up to a re-raise when a call on my part is required but becomes less profitable.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

LAG = Loose AGgressive player

- Jim

[mythrilfox]

I think you played it perfectly. This also gives him good cause to slow down against you in the future.

If I had to put in a raise though, it would be on the flop. Raising the river is pretty bad IMO. Flop raise is meh 50/50.

[BigEndian]

I definitely wasn't afraid of the player. On the contrary, I intentionally gave him the rope to hang himself by and this was my plan from the flop.

His bet on the flop is already charging himself plenty against the likely draws he needs - if he even has a hand at all right now. Raising the flop works also, it's a lower variance safer play and there's nothing wrong with it.

The way I played it is higher variance. But the times he improves to beat me vs. the times he keeps throwing dead money in the pot can make it worth while as well.

Some people would also argue to raise/bet the turn. I think this is the worse of three streets to give action. Raising the turn after a smooth call on the flop heads up screams monster. And betting the turn will likely fold anything he has except a decent jack or a hand he beats me with.

Agree/disagree?

- Jim

[mythrilfox]

Why do you need to figure out where you are in the hand? It's a matter of weighing how much he'll call with hands you beat vs. how much he'll bet with hands you beat vs. how much you'll lose when you are beat.

[swolfe]

looks fine to me. very similar to how i played an AK hand a couple days ago.

[theweatherman]

I still say this is not such a good idea to do. Slow playing an unimproved high pair is just screaming to get outdrawn by a LAG who could be playing a huge range of hands. On the flop he is getting 3-1 with your call and on the turn he has infinite odds to draw. I say bet for value and to cut down his odds on every street. Its better to win a small (not really though) pot than to lose a huge one, which is what your setting yourself up to do. The pot is big enough on the flop that i'd be happy to take it down. As I see it you messed around with a hand that could be easily outdrawn without you reliazing it and thus costing you a lot of money. If that happened I'm sure the LAG would be thinking, man am i lucky he didnt raise, or else i would of folded a hand that won me a lot of money tonight, just like I do when people do similarly stupid things against me. With high pockets raise, raise, raise. If he calls and outdraws you then thats just bad luck, but if you let him outdraw you by applying no pressure than that is a major hole in your game that will cost you a lot of money in your poker carrer. Food for thought.

[IcarusFalling]

500 nl !!!!????!! i had to check to see if i was still in the small stakes.. RAIIIISE !!!.. raise to 60 .. TAKE IT DOWN... i was never one for playing around with KK and AA /images/graemlins/laugh.gif i was reading your post.. and i see your point.. having him throw dead money on a bluff is a good idea.. and depending on the tightness of the table slow playing and tricky playing may come more into play at a higher limit..


perhaps a min raise is a good slightly safer slower version.. if he has AK or somethin and it's a bluff and the turn is an A.. guess what? .. stuff like that happens far to often

[BigEndian]

Do people consider NL500 as mid stakes? I guess it could be, more of a tweener imo.

I can almost guarrantee he doesn't have AK and I would be calling any bet ragardless of what card falls on the river. That's what I set myself up for with the line I took. Definitely a higher variance play.

As an example of what I mean as a LAG, this player open raised J8s in EP and bet all streets into a late position caller with an A and a Q on the flop. The late position player took it down with a pocket pair.

- Jim

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely wasn't afraid of the player. On the contrary, I intentionally gave him the rope to hang himself by and this was my plan from the flop.

His bet on the flop is already charging himself plenty against the likely draws he needs - if he even has a hand at all right now. Raising the flop works also, it's a lower variance safer play and there's nothing wrong with it.

The way I played it is higher variance. But the times he improves to beat me vs. the times he keeps throwing dead money in the pot can make it worth while as well.

Some people would also argue to raise/bet the turn. I think this is the worse of three streets to give action. Raising the turn after a smooth call on the flop heads up screams monster. And betting the turn will likely fold anything he has except a decent jack or a hand he beats me with.

Agree/disagree?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the Turn is the worst, River is Second, and if you are going to put a raise in you would have to on the flop. I like line, I don't use it much, but I think I will.

-Gryph

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that if I was going to put in a raise it would be the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he had any draw that missed he's going to fold. If he had any draw that hit, such as QTo, he's going to raise you. If he has any good hand, better than yours he's going to either call or raise. If he has a marginal weak hand, he'll fold to your raise since he's a good hand reader. I think I like your line, though. It's good.

Also, how did you determine that he's such a good hand reader?

[TheWorstPlayer]

NL500 can go in either forum, I believe. A hand like this, though, I think is more appropriate to this one. If the stacks were deeper or the action trickier, then the other forum would probably be better.

In any case, about the hand: I like your line because it controls the size of the pot which is great and it also doesn't make it easy for him to get away from a worse hand. However, I think you miss out on a fair amount of value from his most likely holding (AJ/QJ/JT) which you could get by betting the turn. However, I would ONLY do that if I could 100% lay down to a check/raise on the turn. Against an aggressive opponent, who I really want to get to showdown against without committing my stack on a one pair hand, I like your line a lot. Against a typical fish, though, I would value bet the turn and river here, assuming that they have AJ or so which is what they have when they lead into the PFR about 90% of the time.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
I still say this is not such a good idea to do. Slow playing an unimproved high pair is just screaming to get outdrawn by a LAG who could be playing a huge range of hands. On the flop he is getting 3-1 with your call and on the turn he has infinite odds to draw. I say bet for value and to cut down his odds on every street. Its better to win a small (not really though) pot than to lose a huge one, which is what your setting yourself up to do. The pot is big enough on the flop that i'd be happy to take it down. As I see it you messed around with a hand that could be easily outdrawn without you reliazing it and thus costing you a lot of money. If that happened I'm sure the LAG would be thinking, man am i lucky he didnt raise, or else i would of folded a hand that won me a lot of money tonight, just like I do when people do similarly stupid things against me. With high pockets raise, raise, raise. If he calls and outdraws you then thats just bad luck, but if you let him outdraw you by applying no pressure than that is a major hole in your game that will cost you a lot of money in your poker carrer. Food for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of OP's line is not to "slowplay", it is to try and extract the most value out of a Laggy opponent while not bloating the pot with only one pair. By keeping the pot small he is setting himself up so that he doesn't loose a huge pot with KK. A lag is likely to bet with about any 2 into the raiser on the flop. By calling here and then checking behind on the turn it will make the lag bet many hands on the river that hero is ahead of. If hero bets the turn the LAG may very well raise with a hand that hero is ahead of but then he would be in a tough spot to call. There is only one draw on the board it's not that dangerous to give a free card because of all the extra money you extract when the villian bets worse hands on the river.

[BigEndian]

You're right, after I was finished writing up my 3 points about betting the river I thought to myself that raising the river would be pretty goofy. But the points speak for themselves, so I didn't follow up.

I can't recall the specific actions that led me to judge him as a good hand reader. It may just be that a lot of LAG players tend to develop the skill faster than your average Joe.

- Jim

[xorbie]

I like your line more if he had bet more into you on the flop. $40 is only half pot, and I don't know if that's normal for your table or not.

If it's the table standard, then I really like your line. If it's more normal to bet full pot, I like raising to $100 or so on the flop and then checking behind the turn and calling a river or making a nice value bet if checked to.

[theweatherman]

How is he extracting any value by not betting? As he said before the player opened a pot with J8s which mean that he could have any cards so there are numerous draws to beat the hero's KK. This is not the way to extract value from a LAG, giving him free cards only helps him! You extract value from him you need to raise and have him call incorrectly. But passivly calling down gives him odds to chase as well as minmizes his losses. If he was on a bluff on the flop he would more than likely go into check fold mode for the rest of the hand, untill he hit his two pair, in which he would raise and then you are screwed. Playing like this so as not to bulid a huge pot is playing scared!!! Why dont you want him to throw all his money in with a worse hand?!?!?! This type of play is just throwing value out the window and will cost you money in the long run. What scares me is how many posters have totally agreed with this obviously flawed line of play!

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
How is he extracting any value by not betting? As he said before the player opened a pot with J8s which mean that he could have any cards so there are numerous draws to beat the hero's KK. This is not the way to extract value from a LAG, giving him free cards only helps him! You extract value from him you need to raise and have him call incorrectly. But passivly calling down gives him odds to chase as well as minmizes his losses. If he was on a bluff on the flop he would more than likely go into check fold mode for the rest of the hand, untill he hit his two pair, in which he would raise and then you are screwed. Playing like this so as not to bulid a huge pot is playing scared!!! Why dont you want him to throw all his money in with a worse hand?!?!?! This type of play is just throwing value out the window and will cost you money in the long run. What scares me is how many posters have totally agreed with this obviously flawed line of play!

[/ QUOTE ]

if hero raises big on the flop it let's the villain play perfectly since hero has defined his hand. the villain will fold hands that lose to KK and call with hands that have him beat. since villain has shown that he will bet to the river with the worst of it, calling down widens the range of hands that villain has that will give hero more money.

this line wins hero the most when he's ahead and loses him the least when he's not.

[theweatherman]

If the hero doesnt raise the flop the villan also plays it perfectly. He gets to draw two free cards for a measly half pot bet on the flop against a dominating hand. I still mantian that the hero was luky that the villian didnt catch since the hero gave him every oportunity to do so. Again not raising is weak tight. Would you not raise a player on a flush draw because it defines your hand as beating him? of course not, even though you give away a little information about your hand you must raise to cut down his odds. Plus on the flop the pot is 120 dollars which is sufficent to take down right away so even if the villan folds it isnt so bad. However calling the 100 on teh river could cost you the pot you would of won on the flop plus the extra river bet. I'd like to know what the hero's reads were on this guy. hes said it himself, the guy could have anything so what makes it so strange that he hit his jacks up on the river? In addition this isnt a poker pro here, you have no idea if hed actually lay down tpmk to a raise bet the KK and hope for a call but calling down the flop and checking the turn is just dumb and is asking to become another "I hate KK, they never win!" story

[BigEndian]

My last response directed at you I think, mainly because (and don't take this personally, it's just a fact) reading posts from someone who doesn't use paragraphs is very painful.

I think describing the line as weak tight is using the term badly. By clearly describing my intents, my actions could not be interpreted as weak-tight. It's very much the other way around. Also, I was perfectly ready to lose this hand playing it the way I did. That's what I signed up for.

Also, I did not give the player 2 free cards. He charged himself for the flop, I gave him the turn for free and there's already been discussion about why betting the turn would not be a good thing.

I made a post to give an example of the play by this player to give a little more clarity in what I meant by LAG. He is perfectly capable of putting significant money in the pot with absolutely nothing. So I think the value in how I played it comes from this.

You look like you're fixated on protecting a hand. I'm a believer in protecting a hand and subscribe to this religiously. But this is a hand I chose to play differently because I saw value in it as noted from the above paragraph (and in several other posts).

- Jim

[theweatherman]

im not sure if my last post went up or not.

Anyways, sorry about not using paragraphs.

I do firmly beleive in protecting hands and making people pay for cards and draws. However if you have firm reads on this opponent then you are a better judge than I.

I play mostly online and this may lead to my protectionist ideals. Since I rarely have solid reads on opponents I do not like to mess with them too much.

If you are aware of the dangers of this style of play then by all means go ahead and do it. I'll concede that if you have reads that the villan will bluff rivers then do this if you wish.

In my opinion i would raise and make him pay rather than risk losing a big pot with a premium hand.

To each his own

[TheWorstPlayer]

Do you acknowledge the fact that OP may be behind in this hand? How does that play into your thinking?

[theweatherman]

I'm not sure if this was directed at me but i will answer it anyways.

There is obviously a possibility that the hero is behind to AA a set or two pair. I think this is more of a reason to raise. You have no idea of where you are in the hand if you merely just call in this situation and a raise for information could help save money on the river.

[mason55]

KK unimproved is not a premium hand when you're playing with 100BB stacks.

What do you do when you get CRed big on the turn? You still think you're ahead? That is the exact reason to call raises PF with JJ or 88, so when people like you can't let go of an overpair you can stack them without even having to think about it.

There is no reason to play a big pot with this hand. If you're ahead villain has either 5 (Jx) or 2 (QQ/TT/99) outs. I am willing to play a small pot with my unimproved KK at the risk of villian hitting his 5 or 2 outer. Especially considering that I don't even know if I'm ahead.

I agree with everyone else, hero played this hand fine. Good job resisting the urge to go crazy with your KK.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if this was directed at me but i will answer it anyways.

There is obviously a possibility that the hero is behind to AA a set or two pair. I think this is more of a reason to raise. You have no idea of where you are in the hand if you merely just call in this situation and a raise for information could help save money on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain please. If you raise on the flop and you're behind, any raise you make is going to be what you called on that river. A good raise on this flop is going to be well over $100 and you don't even know if you're going to get to showdown.

[theweatherman]

I've said nothing about going crazy with anything. And i agree that buliding a huge pot with only KK is not such a good idea. Hence I have said to raise the flop in order to acomplish a number of things:

1) Charge the villian for any draws and cut down his odds.
2) Gain information on where you are in the hand.
3) possibly kill the hand then and there and take down the 100 dollar pot

I am in no way advocating continuing to raise into the villian if he cold calls my flop raise and even further maybe even fold the flop to a large reraise over me.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Charge the villian for any draws and cut down his odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only draw is 9T. Villain is, in fact, charging himself for this draw as he is not getting correct odds.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Gain information on where you are in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is results oriented, but any information you tried to gained would have cost more than you paid to get to the river without the possibility of showing a hand down. You really want to show this hand down .

[ QUOTE ]

3) possibly kill the hand then and there and take down the 100 dollar pot

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a bad idea.

[ QUOTE ]
maybe even fold the flop to a large reraise over me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope you would at least consider folding to a 3-bet push with only one pair.

This villain is a LAG. You want him to bet into you. That is his leak. You don't want to do anything that will keep him from betting into you especially when you probably have the best hand. Pot control is KEY to this hand though. Think how terrible it would be to get pushed off the best hand because you raised the flop.

Getting the most money into the pot when you think you have the best hand isn't always the best play. Sometimes pot control is the most important thing in a hand. Against a LAG when you have good but not great holdings this is one of those times. Let him be a LAG and bet into you, don't slow him down, and don't give him the chance to do anything crazy and push you out.

Go find some posts by Matt Flynn in the MHNL forum about pot control. Learning this skill will help your game IMMENSELY. You will be the one putting everyone else to hard decisions and you will find that you never have a tough decision. This is what NL poker is all about. And this is a prime example of when all the factors come together and make pot contorl the most important part of the hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes, it was directed at you. A raise which will only be called when you are behind is not a 'raise for information'. It is a 'bad play'. If it were a good play, you could always just push on the flop. That way if you are called, you will know that you are behind and if he folds, then you were ahead!

The way to think about this is how to maximize the pot when you are ahead and minimize the pot when you are behind. So, let's see the different possibilities.

1. We raise the flop.
He has AA: He bet the flop. We raise, he calls. Then he will probably bet the turn. Do we now fold? If so, we don't get to showdown and risk being bluffed out of the pot. If not, then we are paying more than if we didn't raise the flop.

He has AJ: He bets the flop, we raise. He most likely folds. He took a stab at it, we raised which indicated an overpair and he most likely folds. If he doesn't fold, he will check the turn and then what do we do? Most likely he is done with the hand. Maybe by checking behind on the turn we can get him to call a value bet on the river. Most likely, though, is that he folds the flop and we make nothing beyond his flop bet.

2. We call the flop, check the turn, call the river.
He has AA: He bets the flop, we call. He checks the turn, either going for the check/raise, or trying to keep us in the pot with a missed AK, etc. We check behind. Then he value bets the river and we call. Notice this is the same money as we would have paid by raising the flop, if we had the discipline to fold to a turn bet or river bet from him. However, this way gets us to showdown and that way does not.

He has AJ: He bets the flop, we call. He checks the turn because he is now uncertain about his hand. We check behind. He throws out a blocking bet on the river and is planning on folding to any raise, so we call since he will only call a river raise with a hand that beats us here. Notice that we make an extra bet out of him over raising the flop since he would have folded on the flop but once he gets to the river, he wants to show down so he makes a blocking bet.

3. We call the flop, bet the turn, bet the river.
He has AA: OK, I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but if he check/raises the turn, and we fold, this is the same as number 2 except we don't get to show down. If he just calls the turn, then we are going to lose an extra river bet over number 2.

He has AJ: If he calls the turn and calls the river, then we get an extra bet. A sizeable one, since it is a value bet on the river after having grown the pot on the turn. If he check/raises the turn, though, and we lay down, we cost ourselves a nice pot.

So, I prefer number 3 against people who are very likely to call on the turn and the river with AJ AND who are very unlikely to check/raise the turn with a hand worse than KK. THIS IS MOST PEOPLE ON PARTY. However, since it was stated in the OP that this guy was pretty LAG, and I took that to mean that he might actually check/raise the turn with a worse hand, and also that he might be on a complete bluff and not even AJ here, OP's line is certainly best in this spot since it allows him to continue bluffing the river if he is on a bluff, it saves him a lot of money against a better hand, and it maximizes or nearly maximizes the profit off of AJ.

[jhall23]

I just want to add to Worst's good analysis a tiny bit.

Of course if we know that this guy is fishy and call's with AJ etc then we bet to try and get him to make a mistake by calling. Against an agressive opponent even if we know he had AJ it can be worth it to purposely make a mistake on the turn according to the TOP by letting him draw to his 5 outs. By doing so the opponent will make a bigger TOP mistake on the river by betting into us with a worse hand. Betting the turn agaist a good aggro they have an easier decision. Either they realize they are beat and lay it down, or they check-raise and try and push you off your likely overpair and put you to a tough decision where you may easily make the mistake and fold.

Also taking this hand out of a vacuum, this type of play will be usefull against the lag in future hands because he will know that check's don't always mean weakness and he can't just buy pot's easily from you. Especially usefull in a live game where you are likely to be playing with someone for a good amount of tim.