Blind defense, play it with me

[DeathDonkey]

This hand was sent to me by someone I play with / teach a bit about poker. Let's play it street by street as I think its an excellent blind defense type of hand to learn from.

Button in this hand was a known LAG and blind stealer. SB is unknown so assume typical.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, Button raises, SB calls

Call, fold, or raise, and if you say raise, plan if button 3 bets and SB calls, and plan if button 3 bets and SB folds.

-DeathDonkey

[aK13]

If button is LAG and likes to blind steal, I 3bet this, as you likely have a better hand than him, given his range of hands that he might steal with. If he caps, then I might give him some credit for having me dominated. I would much rather prefer a J high flop than an A high flop.

EDIT: cap probably means you're behind QQ-AA, so I'd look for the A.

[kapw7]

This is not really blind defence. It's having a monster hand that you raise-re-raise-cap PF. It would be different if SB folded where you could try sometimes (50% ?) to trap the LAG by just calling.

It's easy to play this hand PF. But post flop? Waiting for your next post.

[tiltaholic]

white:
<font color="white"> easy 3-bet by me.
and assuming the betting is still 4 bets per street, i'm calling if button caps. if it's 5 bets per street, i think i cap it if SB calls 2 more and I know I cap it if SB folds.</font>

[olavfo]

A newbie's attempt:

Assuming SB is typical (will call a raise in SB with a wide range of hands), we very likely have the best hand here, so I raise without hesitation.

If button 3-bets and SB calls, I call. We're probably up against at least one strong hand, so let's see what the flop brings.

If button 3-bets and SB folds, I cap. Button could have 3-bet to drive out SB, so he doesn't necessarily have a strong hand. I want to keep the initiative, so I cap.

olavfo

EDIT: Ah...4 bets per street. Well, I raise and call button's reraise, regardless of what SB does. I assumed 5 bets per street, since that's the only scenario where you have a choice after button's reraise (assuming you never want to fold).

[MrWookie47]

Grunching.

3bet him. Call a cap.

[Shillx]

I think both 3-betting and calling are okay here. I would probably do it at like a 4:1 ratio (mostly 3-betting). Of course, I will be auto check/raising the flop if I just call (it doesn't matter what cards come). If the flop is something like T /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, the hero will have at least 30% equity so it isn't as bad as it looks.

Brad

[bottomset]

blindpost

i think its mainly a 3bet situation, with occasional calls prob around 3:1 or so raise:call

if you 3bet, and button caps, SB calls .. you are likely in a bad spot, looking for the big flop

if the button caps, sb folds .. you are still in solid shape a fair amount of the time, given his LAG tendencies

if you do call you should checkraise a lot of flops

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I think both 3-betting and calling are okay here. I would probably do it at like a 4:1 ratio (mostly 3-betting). Of course, I will be auto check/raising the flop if I just call (it doesn't matter what cards come). If the flop is something like T /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, the hero will have at least 30% equity so it isn't as bad as it looks.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this approach as well. I would try the call, check/raise flop against a tighter, weaker, opponent, though.

[Isura]

Against a LAG I mix it up with raises and calls, about 70/30 ratio. I'm capping if button 3-bets and SB calls. If SB folds, I mix it up about 50/50.

[Reqtech]

3-bet to punish the blind stealer.

I don't get your last sentence, how can the button 3-bet when you as the BB are 3-betting?

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a LAG I mix it up with raises and calls, about 70/30 ratio. I'm capping if button 3-bets and SB calls. If SB folds, I mix it up about 50/50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button cannot 3-bet you here. As for the hand, I'm 3-betting this and keeping the lead on most flops.

[SlyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think both 3-betting and calling are okay here. I would probably do it at like a 4:1 ratio (mostly 3-betting). Of course, I will be auto check/raising the flop if I just call (it doesn't matter what cards come). If the flop is something like T /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, the hero will have at least 30% equity so it isn't as bad as it looks.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

WHy the automatic check raise? Enlighten me please.

[GoHoosiers]

Grunch-time.....

1. Raises.
2. Calls if action continues raise-call...?
3. Calls if action continues raise-fold...?


Rich

[GoHoosiers]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its mainly a 3bet situation, with occasional calls prob around 3:1 or so raise:call

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there more to this line of thinking beyond just "mixing it up"? What led to this ratio?


Rich

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think its mainly a 3bet situation, with occasional calls prob around 3:1 or so raise:call

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there more to this line of thinking beyond just "mixing it up"? What led to this ratio?


Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

Often times you will be calling a raise out of the BB with a weak hand (like 65s). Sometimes you should check/raise the flop when you miss. Since you will be doing it with weak hands, you sometimes have to be doing it with good hands as well.

Brad

[GrunchCan]

I'd flip flop between raising becasue Button is on a steal, and just calling becasue I'm a little concerned about SB and becasue it may offer me more fold equity on a flop that's bad for everyone. I'd probably be close to 66 raise:33 call.

Folding would be a disaster.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I will be auto check/raising the flop if I just call (it doesn't matter what cards come).

[/ QUOTE ]

Stay tuned...

[DeathDonkey]

Ok guys so I screwed up when I said what if button 3 bets, but you all handled that in stride so let's just forget it. I agree with those who basically said "3 bet because we have the best hand" or "3 bet for value". However, in this hand, hero called. Live with it as we decide what to do on the flop.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks,

Check or bet?

-DeathDonkey

[UncleSalty]

/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif(In the dark)

I think I just call and plan to c/r a favorable flop and lead the turn.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok guys so I screwed up when I said what if button 3 bets, but you all handled that in stride so let's just forget it. I agree with those who basically said "3 bet because we have the best hand" or "3 bet for value". However, in this hand, hero called. Live with it as we decide what to do on the flop.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks,

Check or bet?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Check raise.

[UncleSalty]

This is a very favorable flop IMHO. I'm smooth calling SB and hoping for a raise from Button. If he raises, I'm going to war. If he calls, I'm going to war on the turn.

Edit: Didn't your flop post originally say SB bets??. Ok, if he checked I'm check/raising as previously planned. Guess I mis-read the post the first time.

[DeathDonkey]

SB checked...

[Shillx]

Check, always.

If it goes bet-call, the standard play is to raise. I will almost always do so in this spot but sometimes I'll just call.

If it goes bet-fold this is an easy check/call.

Brad

[kapw7]

You have to bet this. You don't want to give a free card to a flush. The button is the less likely to have a 3 (what did he raise with? A3, K3, 33?) but you have to be aware of the SB.

If button calls and SB raises then he most likely has the 3. You can call and see the turn card and check-fold UI depending on the action. Folding is not bad since there is a possibility to be sandwiched if button 3-raises.

If button raises and SB folds you 3-bet b/c you put him more likely on a draw. If SB calls then you call as before since he is likely to have a 3.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
If it goes bet-fold this is an easy check/call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this to set up for a c/r on the turn and get an extra BB out of button before we slow him down? We're definitely ahead here, right?

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
Check, always.

If it goes bet-call, the standard play is to raise. I will almost always do so in this spot but sometimes I'll just call.

If it goes bet-fold this is an easy check/call.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I like and agree with your line.

[MrWookie47]

Grunched again.

Since you called, check/raise.

Post-Grunch edit: Yep. Shill is right. I assumed SB called. If he folds, waiting to the turn is better.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I will be auto check/raising the flop if I just call (it doesn't matter what cards come).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If it goes bet-fold this is an easy check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I would catch you as soon as you said this since I knew what the flop would be. hehehe.

-DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Ok this one was too easy so I'm going to move on. SB checked, we check to preflop raiser and see what happens...

Preflop: Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif .
6 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif , A /images/graemlins/club.gif , 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds

Fold, call or raise? If you say call, what is your plan for the rest of the hand? If you say raise, what is your plan if button 3 bets, what if he just calls?

-DeathDonkey

[MrWookie47]

Grunching, yet again.

This is actually a tough one for me, so I'm going to think out loud through it. The decision to call the flop here instead of raising is clear, but when to discontinue check/call and put a raise or bet in is tough. See, it resembles a WA/WB situation, but there's a huge chance that we're just way ahead, none of this "way behind" crap. There's also a decent chance that villain will go to war, or at least put in a few more BB, with a lesser hand, especially considering that he's a LAG. I don't think I should be overly paranoid about the 2 clubs, but a lot of people steal with suited things.

Actually, is K3o and A3o on the list of things he'd steal with? Q3o? I suppose that increases the chances of being behind, not that I'm folding, but that WA/WB might be more correct.

Well, let's look at a range of hands that villain might steal with (I guess this is going to be long):

Hands we crush:
22, 44-KK (66 hands)
AT-A4, A2 (72 hands)
KQs-K2s, non clubs (32 hands)
QJs-Q8s, non clubs (11 hands)
JTs and J9s, non clubs (4 hands)
T9s, non clubs (3 hands)
KQo-K9o (45 hands)
QJo-Q9o (33 hands)
JTo (9 hands)
Total: 275 hands

Hands we're beating, but have a decent chance of drawing out:
The suited stuff above, but now clubs.
Total: 18 hands

Hands crushing us:
AA (1 hand)
AK-AQ (16 hands)
A3 (4 hands)
K3s (2 hands)
33 (1 hand)
Total: 24 hands

And chop with AJ: 6 hands

Of those hands, how many would not fold to a turn check/raise, assuming a brick fell? Well, the clubs, and stuff that crushes us, and I'll assume all of the other A's. Thats 120 hands, out of the 323 I'm considering, 90 of which we beat. How much does this cost compared to WA/WB? Well, that depends on how frequently he'll pay off on the river UI. The pocket pairs will, the A's will, and if he catches a pair with any of the other broadways, he probably will, which will happen about 25% of the time, or with about 172 hands. Assuming we win, we're 72/323 to win 3 additional BB (calling with a lower A) and 18/323 to win 2 additional BB (folds FD UI), and 203/323 to win only 1 additional BB with the check/raise, giving us an EV of 1.41 BB. WA/WB gives us 172/323 to win 2 additional BB, and 103/323 to win 1 additional BB, or an EV of 1.38 BB.

It looks like check/raising is winning, but that doesn't take into account the additional cost of the times we're behind. A check/raise will cost us 4 BB, and WA/WB costs us 3 BB, since we'll pay off a all the way to the river a raise of our 3bet. This happens 24/323, meaning a check/raise costs -0.30 BB, and WA/WB costs -0.22 BB, bringing the total EV to 1.11 for the check/raise, and 1.16 for WA/WB.

This is close enough that the things I've neglected are starting to matter. How likely is he to go to war if he hits a K on either the turn or river? That's pretty much a wash for either, I suppose. What if he hits his flush draw? If he hits it on the turn, that goes against the check/raise. If he hits on the river, it's a wash. I assumed he'll raise our river bet with AK/AQ, but he may not 3bet a check/raise with those either, I suppose. What if he checks behind on the turn? Well, that'll affect the EV of each line the same, so while my absolute EV calculation is suspect, the difference should still be reasonable. Actually, the most important assumption I made is the set of hands that villain insta-folds to the check/raise, rather than calling and taking a peek at the river, or even pay off to the river. As this set increases (the PP's, for example, or hitting a pair on the turn), the scales tip back towards the check/raise. Any input on this guy's WtSD%? At 50%+, the check/raise is almost surely better, while at 30%-, WA/WB maintains a slight lead. If he'll call the check/raise and call down with any PP, or any lower pair hit on the T, that adds about +0.50 BB to the EV of the check/raise. That's pretty loose, however. Even so, I think I'll cast my vote for check/raising the river, given no additional info, since if WA/WB is correct, it's only correct by a little, where as if check/raising is correct, it could be correct by a lot.

I guess I've also negelected the chance that villain hits a 2 or 3 outer, depending. It's pretty late for me, though, and I still have work to do. Anyone care to work that out and see if it matters? Also, if I did something funky in my calculation, please correct me so I don't lead anyone astray, including myself.

Anyway, villain attempts a turn check/raise, calling down a 3bet or leading the river if called. If villain checks behind, hero of course leads the river.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok this one was too easy so I'm going to move on. SB checked, we check to preflop raiser and see what happens...

Preflop: Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif .
6 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif , A /images/graemlins/club.gif , 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds

Fold, call or raise? If you say call, what is your plan for the rest of the hand? If you say raise, what is your plan if button 3 bets, what if he just calls?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I smooth call. I'm going to try for the check-raise on the turn. (If I didn't have the Ace in my hand I would lead the turn no matter what card came.)