Your philosophy on calling all-in 'steals' on the bubble?

[Sam T.]

Hi all,

In the last week or so, there have been a few posts dealing with situations when you are in the blinds with 3-5 players left, and the button pushes. I used to call with any ace, pair, even any two broadway, but I've been tightening up of late. Part of this is a result of the discussion of Raptor's post about folding AJ in just this situation, but I thought it might be useful to have a discussion oriented on general philosophy rather than a particular hand.

So my question is what is your philosophy for calling all-ins? Yes, I know "it depends", but what does it depend upon? How do your calling standards change depending on reads? Even if the villain has pushed the last four hands, are you ever calling with A9? With 99? Do you follow one poster's advice to fold if it's pushed to you, and push if it's folded to you? (I rather like this line, but wonder if there are any dissenters out there.)

Hope this proves a useful thread,

Sam

[Phil Van Sexton]

I have summarized in a haiku for you:

I call for profit
There is no other reason
Pushing is gangster

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if the villain has pushed the last four hands, are you ever calling with A9? With 99? Do you follow one poster's advice to fold if it's pushed to you, and push if it's folded to you? (I rather like this line, but wonder if there are any dissenters out there.)

Hope this proves a useful thread,

Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone has raised me too many times I have been known to call with KQ, QJ etc. Often I have the best hand. Sometimes he has AK of course.

If someone attacks my blind each and every time I have two options 1) alter my pushing standards on other peoples blinds or 2) alter my calling standards from BB. I usually pick the one where I get a suitable hand first. I don't want to do either with pure trash.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
I have summarized in a haiku for you:

I call for profit
There is no other reason
Pushing is gangster

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Phil. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A couple of follow-up questions:

-I'm pretty white, and old enough to be out of touch with today's kids. Should I differentiate between "gangster" and "gangsta"?

-Are there plays I should be making that are not for profit? Or are they -EV?

Sam

[jg22]

Id like to hear some thoughts on this as well. I got burned by calling a steal last night myself. In the hand, it was folded to the button who was the short stack(600ish), he pushed all in with Kc 6c. I was 2nd stack(1200ish) in the BB at the table and called with AQo (blinds 100/50). Of course he spiked a K and I was severely crippled.

I like his push on the button with K6s, but my call was questionable. Does anyone lay down AQo as the 2nd stack in this situation when you have a strong feeling that the button pushes any 2? AQ isnt a huge favorite over any 2...

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I like his push on the button with K6s, but my call was questionable. Does anyone lay down AQo as the 2nd stack in this situation when you have a strong feeling that the button pushes any 2? AQ isnt a huge favorite over any 2...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't lay down AQo. It is big enough favourite over A2-AJ.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
AQ isnt a huge favorite over any 2...

[/ QUOTE ]
In terms of pure equity, you're a 64.4% to 35.6% favorite. That's pretty big.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Id like to hear some thoughts on this as well. I got burned by calling a steal last night myself. In the hand, it was folded to the button who was the short stack(600ish), he pushed all in with Kc 6c. I was 2nd stack(1200ish) in the BB at the table and called with AQo (blinds 100/50). Of course he spiked a K and I was severely crippled.

I like his push on the button with K6s, but my call was questionable. Does anyone lay down AQo as the 2nd stack in this situation when you have a strong feeling that the button pushes any 2? AQ isnt a huge favorite over any 2...

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding here would be horrible.

To even consider folding is a big problem. Please meditate for 1 hour in a dark room and think about the haiku.

[kevstreet]

I definitely tighten up my standards, sometimes I wish others understood this concept.

$22 SnG
Blinds 200/400

Hero 5500
Button 650
SB 750
BB 1100

I have pocket 7s and push, BB calls w/ A6 and spikes his A.
On the bubble, he's about to watch the small stacks get crippled by the blinds and he calls w/ Ace rag...

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have summarized in a haiku for you:

I call for profit
There is no other reason
Pushing is gangster

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Phil. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A couple of follow-up questions:

-I'm pretty white, and old enough to be out of touch with today's kids. Should I differentiate between "gangster" and "gangsta"?

-Are there plays I should be making that are not for profit? Or are they -EV?

Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe these will clear it up:

I push for profit
There is no other reason
Calling is gangster

I fold for profit
There is no other reason
Yugo is gangster

[lutefisk]

FYI, I'm still quite new to this. This post is long, and I give a lot of opinions. I'm totally aware that I may be way off base with some of them, but hopefully it will at least generate some discussion. It'd be great to hear alternative lines if it seems like I'm lost too.


The two biggest factors when I'm making this decision are player reads, and stack sizes. (Yes, you could include blind size, but I usually think of stacks in terms of XBBs, so it's combined in my world.)

Also, to frame my discussion on the "read" section, I'm going to assume fairly equal shallow stacks resulting from a longer, tighter game. Stack size will often override my decisions based on reads. (ie. if I've got 15BB, I'm not going to call a 10BB push with any Ace.)

In truth, I'm not so good at getting reads, and probably am only picking them up when someone is characteristic to a ghastly degree. This said, against someone who has become loose, like the guy pushing the past 4 hands, I'll go with any pair, any ace, and kings through ten. Against someone known to be tight, (again, this is a characteristically tight game), who continues to be super tight, I'll only go with AK, AA, KK, and QQ. This will probably be railed upon by others as super weak, but the tight read puts it in my mind that I can make the blind back by stealing from him more times than he'll be stealing it from me. Reads are tricky.

Stack size is right in front of you. For this discussion, assume default stack size of 11BB and differences will be given for the situations. If you are healthy you have nothing to prove against other big stacks, and have time to wait for a good spot. From BB, I would assert the same standards as listed against a tight player. No need to call a push overbet at this point. If you are weak, especially down to the 5BB range your standards should drop both because you don't have much time, and your weakness likely makes his raising standards lower. If your opponent (11BB) pushes at you, I think I would call with any pair, higher Aces, KQ, KJ, and KT. If you are both small, my standards loosen up by just a couple hands to probably include QJ and probably any Ace. If he is ~5BB and you are healthy the standards rise only slightly above the previous situation. If you are a bigger stack (20BB), and it doesn't cripple to lose his all in (especially if he's in the 3BB range), I call with any A, any K, QJ, QT, JTs, T9s.
My $0.02


"Only after the 10th punch will you see the fist, and only after the 20th will you block it." --Proverb from the game of Go

[Unarmed]

I love fold equity.
Its a wonderful thing.

Hence, I generally refuse to call pushes without a hand that is favoured against a random push hand from a tight player. (hand range defined as any 2 suited broadway, any suited ace, A7o+, all pockets)

AT+ (AT only if suited)
66+

Everything else goes straight into the muck.

Only a guideline, YMMV etc, etc.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have summarized in a haiku for you:

I call for profit
There is no other reason
Pushing is gangster

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Phil. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A couple of follow-up questions:

-I'm pretty white, and old enough to be out of touch with today's kids. Should I differentiate between "gangster" and "gangsta"?

-Are there plays I should be making that are not for profit? Or are they -EV?

Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

in terms of the general philosophy, i believe that it was quite decently covered in raptor's thread, as well as another one that was very recent. there are clearly many things that all this sort of thing depends on, but really, the only one that matters is profit. how to tell what's profitable? well, stack sizes, reads, blinds, your cards, need for advertizing, spite, etc.

in response to your question about are there plays that are not for profit that i should be making. well, by definition, they are -ev. however, there are times when a play that is - immediate ev is + overall ev. this too was covered in the two threads in the last week. an example is if you play against the same opponents all the time and you believe you can make a call that loses you a small amount of ev once, that you believe will intimidate people from stealing from you who regularly play with you for a long time.

general philosophy: stealing is the nuts, calling is for pussies.

citanul

[Voltron87]

hey hey hey
smoke weed everyday
nate dogg.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
hey hey hey
smoke weed everyday
nate dogg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Booo.

[Newt_Buggs]

How small does your stack have to be to call a push with a junk hand? I've always thought that if posting your BB takes up half of your stack, you have to call a push almost no matter what. But what if you have 2.5 or 3 BB before posting? Where do you usually make the distinction between calling with and folding a weak hand you got delt that you know is behind. Obviously at this point you have very little FE

[prepotency]

Here's something I've been thinking about of late - food for thought:

Personally, when I start pushing all-in or stealing on the bubble or ITM, I start by stealing with decent hands. However, after I've stolen once or twice, my threshold for stealing hands greatly increases. I think this is because I'm afraid that my decent hands will more likely get called now out of spite or because they think i'm just trying to steal. The quesiton becomes how far can you push people, furthermore, is this a counter-argument to the traditional theory that if someone is pushing a lot, you can loosen your calling standards?

Does anyone else have this thought?

[TruFloridaGator]

AQ was a great hand to be calling with there.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

I fold for profit
There is no other reason
Yugo is gangster

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

Yugoslav

[11t]

If the blinds are low and I have room to move I will never call and all-in unless I have JJ+. However if the blinds are high and the stacks are relatively equal (4-6BB) I will be more inclined to call with a hand that I feel is a marginal favorite (A9 is a little weak for me, I'd rather go with aT+ and 88+) and then use my stack to try and win.

I don't like to gamble until I have to and when I do I like it to be for a huge pot that garuntees me a 2nd or 1st place finish.

[homedog]

If you haven't stolen in awhile you almost have to steal the first time with rags. Cause you'll usually get the benefit of the doubt the first time. And this way when you get called the next time, you actually have cards worth playing.

Of course not everyone pays attention. I repeatedly folded as small blind to the big blind last night. Finally one hand I raise him big hoping to avoid a flop with pocket 10's. He calls me with queen jack. This is after my not having tried before to take the blinds preflop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding here would be horrible.

To even consider folding is a big problem. Please meditate for 1 hour in a dark room and think about the haiku.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with hands being posted within another post, as there are too many potential assumptions. jg22, is this truly a bubble hand, or is it more than 4 way?

If this hand is 6 way (not the bubble), then I think folding here is better. Be aware, the bubble means down to the last 4. I apologize if I am overemphasizing this point, but this is a subtle difference/mistake that I see happening.

[citanul]

i've usually got a problem with hands posted in a thread that is about a specific hand, unless it is done very well, and the original hand has already gotten its proper attention. however, in the case where a thread is about a general concept, instead of about a particular hand, i think that well chosen, well explained hands can be helpful to further discourse.

citanul

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
however, in the case where a thread is about a general concept, instead of about a particular hand, i think that well chosen, well explained hands can be helpful to further discourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess I should have been more precise. I agree. Unfortunately, I think there may have been an assumption on the AQ hand due to the location of it's post. How positive are we that hero was really on the bubble? Without documenting this fact, I think the advice given (which is correct) could be incorrect if this hand, indeed, was not on the bubble.

Can't believe I just wrote this. Now I'm over-analyzing...