Trouble with middle pairs

[deception5]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Should I raise here? I'm having trouble in this situation because with 2 limpers and the blinds I'm assuming 5-way or more and that I want to try for my set here.

If I do raise and an overcard comes or a scary board would the typical line be to bet/call a raise and check/fold the turn unimproved?

Thanks,
D5

[yellowjack]

It's really close.
88 is a clear call, TT is a clear raise.
Only way to play is badly is by folding /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Dunno]

Well this depends but first of all u have to raise. Rasie is good because if its a ragged board and some one bets into you, u will raise him and isolate him and maybe some other for this big pot. Then u have a good chanse to win.

Sins we assume everyone calls preflop this isnt bad for ur hand sins u also like big pots if u get ur set. If ur not and maybe one overcard comes up and u got a bet in front of u, Rasie to isolate him. He could have u drawing drawing slim or u could have him drawing on some stupid hand, many ppl like to just bet here w just big cards.

if its 2 overcard i think ur beat and u could probly safely trow the nice 99 away. But dont forget to raise preflop!!!! your hand is to good not to raise!

[Malachii]

I personally limp with nines and try to flop a set or an overpair... tens are my cutoff. If you raise, you're going to play the hand more aggressively since you're coming in from a position of strength... if you play well after the flop and have a good read on your opponents, raising is fine.

[ QUOTE ]

If I do raise and an overcard comes or a scary board would the typical line be to bet/call a raise and check/fold the turn unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question is horribly generalized. What constitutes a scary board? Who's doing the raising? How big is the pot?
Could your opponent be raising for a free card on a draw? I think my basic line would be a stop and go if I got raised on the flop, but it's very read/situation dependant.

[Dunno]

i draw my line a litle lower then u do. i agree that it could be close but if u play ur pocketpairs right postflop i think the raise is alot better. My line would be 88 there i would think twice by raising but i would probly do it anyway. 77 i say call sins its only a set hand to make the winner.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Should I raise here? I'm having trouble in this situation because with 2 limpers and the blinds I'm assuming 5-way or more and that I want to try for my set here.

If I do raise and an overcard comes or a scary board would the typical line be to bet/call a raise and check/fold the turn unimproved?

Thanks,
D5

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise that 100% of the time. You scare people behind you out, buying you position, and the people that are in front of you will play very cautious, you can get a real good feel for their strength. When that overcard falls, (and it probably will), they'll think it hit YOU! They might not like their kicker, and if you have position on em, you can take a free showdown or whatever when they likely check to you.. If they start betting into you or raising on the big streets, THEN be afraid. Examples of why I raise 99:

This 1st one is slightly maniacal but these guys were LAG's:

Crypto 2/4 - Hero in LP with 99:
Preflop:
UTG limps, UTG+1 raises, EP folds, MP coldcalls, Hero 3bets, 5 folds, UTG/UTG+2 call.

Flop K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.
Hero wins 7bb.

--------------------
This 2nd one is standard operating procedure, table full of fish:

Crypto £1/2 - Hero is UTG with 99

Preflop:
Hero raises, 4 folds, MP calls, 4 folds.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero bets, MP calls

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero bets, MP calls

River: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero bets, MP folds.

Hero wins 5.5bb

Aggression rules the field..

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
i draw my line a litle lower then u do. i agree that it could be close but if u play ur pocketpairs right postflop i think the raise is alot better. My line would be 88 there i would think twice by raising but i would probly do it anyway. 77 i say call sins its only a set hand to make the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

88 doesnt stand alone a whole lot more than 77. For me, 88 is only a raise if you're 1st in MP or later. I'd limp 88 and call 1 if it gets raised behind me under any other conditions, and fold it to a PF raise before me. Completing or calling 1 from the BB is fine too, but I think you'll get into a lot of trouble raising 88 too much. If you're raising 88 more than 20% of the time it's probably too much.

[car ramrod]

yes I would raise pf

[Dunno]

well i meant i hes spot. the pot is 5-way so if he would have 88 i would raise to make a bigger pot. Its true that 88 isnt alot better then 77 but hey u have to draw the line somewhere. This rise is for value and all those callers make a good pot. Lets say the board raggs comming like 5 5 10 rainbow 2 check and a bet in front of u. U raise and then u might get headsup. This way will win u money. Of course the board may come A Q 9 all clubs, well it was worth the shoot.

GL // Dunno

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
well i meant i hes spot. the pot is 5-way so if he would have 88 i would raise to make a bigger pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the pot will be 5-way if you raise? LP will have to coldcall 2, and the BB might have trash he'd never pay to play. Or if you just limp for that matter, you dont know what will happen behind you. If you already have 5 in before you, then I understand your case, and then it's set-or-fold. However, if you're gonna raise 88 there, you might as well raise 22, cuz the only thing 888xx beats that 222xx doesn't is another set of 3-7's.

[soko]

If you read SSHE you will realize, and even David Sklansky says, that arguing over small edges like this is a waste of time, there are many more important aspects of the game you should be studying.

[Dunno]

thats true that i didnt notice that they would have to coldcall for a 5-way and u do have a point there. maybe i would have limped here 88 but i 99 is for me if im not first to act in a loose table.

I feel its a diffrens betwen 22 and 88 dont forget that raggedboards happens and if the board is 5 high then we have them beat at the time. some one can go for the pot w hand like A 5s and we raise. If we would have had 22 in this spot someone who plays A 5s will have us drawing slim and we cant proced.

[itsmesteve]

I raise this fairly regularly, but it really depends on the texture of the game. IF it'll definitely be 5 handed, its not as clear, but this also implies your buying the button, which means you should be able to minimize postflop loses. If a raise buys you the button and knocks out one or both blinds, its a no brainer. It's really tough to give you a "standard" flop line without a flop or knowing how many opponenets you have. If my raise buys position and its checked to me, i think i bet out about 95% of the time regardless of the flop and take it from there. If c/r'd it'll depend on who did it, reads, the board, etc. as to my future actions.

[itsmesteve]

I think that this can be a fairly sizable edge to exploit. Position and Aggression are huge in this game. IF the early limpers play garbage and raising buys you position it is NOT a small edge, imo. Look at the other hands posted in this thread. Agression picks up decent size pots instead of check folding the overcard flop.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
thats true that i didnt notice that they would have to coldcall for a 5-way and u do have a point there. maybe i would have limped here 88 but i 99 is for me if im not first to act in a loose table.

I feel its a diffrens betwen 22 and 88 dont forget that raggedboards happens and if the board is 5 high then we have them beat at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

A rough estimate: there's 24 cards lower than 8 in the deck, so (24/50)^5=only a 2.5% chance that your 88 will remain an overpair by the river. So count on overcards. 23456 23467 22457 26677 are the kind of boards you're talking about, which are dangerous for other obvious reasons. 99 gives you a little more leeway, not much but it doubles your chance of remaining an overpair, and halves your chances of the board being so raggy that other players get straights/trips/boats on you..

[Dunno]

not really im talking about the flop and maybe one overcard. its not the preflop play here that determein how u make money here its the postflop. if u have one overcard at the flop the u got a shoot at it w 2 i dont think ur dead. this happens alot more then the 2.5%

[istewart]

Here I'm almost always raising.

[HajiShirazu]

This is an easy raise and 88 is a raise also.
The two limpers could easily have cards lower than 9 in their hands. In this case you have a good deal of equity.
You also might be able to get the button. That's a big deal with 99 where many times you will find yourself wanting to take a free showdown after multiple overcards fall.
Also you might be able to fold out the blinds. You don't really want to give J4o a free look at the flop, since it has a 1/6 chance of outflopping your hand. But you don't mind if you raise and J4o calls.
99 is a strong hand that will win many pots even without improving against fields of 4 or so players, but usually only if played aggressively to get those overcard chasers to fold.

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
If you read SSHE you will realize, and even David Sklansky says, that arguing over small edges like this is a waste of time, there are many more important aspects of the game you should be studying.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ArturiusX]

I raise this everytime.

[Dunno]

agreed