You think these guys were B&M noobs?

[juanez]

These guys weren't tipping at all....no, just kidding /images/graemlins/grin.gif

These two guys get on a table tonight. They made me laugh a few times:

1) On one hand the pot grew big enough to take a second buck for the jackpot "rake". (I hate calling it a "rake" because it ALL goes back to the players...whatever). Anyway, I put the second buck near the slot.

When the hand is complete, I push the pot and drop the rake and jackpot rake. One of the guys says "Why did you take $2 for a tip instead of one, like usual?"

I look at this guy confused like "WTF are you talking about?" because I didn't even get tipped yet. He points to the jackpot slot on the table....I let the player next to him explain. I just wonder how many other noobs think the same thing about the jackpot rake.

2) The same guy and his buddy were rather lubed up and were talking a lot of sheeot. One of them was raising preflop almost every single hand and being rather boisterous. You would think from the way they talked that they were pro's (lmao).

As I'm shuffling, one of the guys says to his buddy across the table, "How about this hand I bet, you raise, then I'll re-reraise you, and you re-raise me!"

I say, "That is what we call collusion guys. If you say that again, you will be removed from the poker room."

They both look at me like they were waiting for the punchline, which never came of course.

I was nice to these guys, don't get me wrong. They just needed a little guidance, I guess you'd call it. Which of course is a part of my job. They played for about 4 hours and left as happy as can be. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[smoore]

The first time I played B&M (in CO, coincidentally), I had no idea what a "bad beat jackpot" was. I understood rake from the little online I'd played and I thought that other slot was tokes. Luckily I asked and found out within the first few hands so I managed to not become a dick that first night. The dealer let the players next to me explain it. I'm glad they were both kind.

[mrkilla]

please keep them happy they help pay my bills /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
On one hand the pot grew big enough to take a second buck for the jackpot "rake".

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen, nor heard of any cardroom taking a 2nd buck for the JP. What limit is this on?

[ QUOTE ]
(I hate calling it a "rake" because it ALL goes back to the players...whatever).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necesarily to the players paying that buck or 2. I consider it a rake.

[ QUOTE ]
2) The same guy and his buddy were rather lubed up and were talking a lot of sheeot. One of them was raising preflop almost every single hand and being rather boisterous. You would think from the way they talked that they were pro's (lmao).

As I'm shuffling, one of the guys says to his buddy across the table, "How about this hand I bet, you raise, then I'll re-reraise you, and you re-raise me!"

I say, "That is what we call collusion guys. If you say that again, you will be removed from the poker room." They both look at me like they were waiting for the punchline, which never came of course

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't what we call collusion, dude. I'd have waited for the punchline also.

I shudder to think of you dealing in my game with these thoughts.

b

[TimTimSalabim]

I consider it a rake, because in my entire life, I'm not likely to get any of it back. It's like being forced to buy a lottery ticket (which is why I mostly play in rooms that don't have jackpots).

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider it a rake, because in my entire life, I'm not likely to get any of it back. It's like being forced to buy a lottery ticket

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention if you do get involved in one, say as a table share, if you've played for a while (meaning years) you likely won't be recouping even close to all of what you contributed for a JP drop.

[ QUOTE ]
(which is why I mostly play in rooms that don't have jackpots).

[/ QUOTE ]

Many times the action you receive from players playing looser, to hit the JP more than makes up for the $1 extra drop when you win.

b

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I understood rake from the little online I'd played and I thought that other slot was tokes.

[/ QUOTE ]

At Foxwoods, the location of the toke box to the left of the tray makes it look like a jackpot slot at other rooms.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
At Foxwoods, the location of the toke box to the left of the tray makes it look like a jackpot slot at other rooms

[/ QUOTE ]

wow. they share tips there? That sucks.

b

[smoore]

yeah, I was just confused... the jackpot slot is on the left of the tray here in CO too, but then they have a tip box that they hang on the dealer cutout. I used to hate the JP but now that I've seen even "rocky" players cold call w/AJ I love it /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[AKQJ10]

Are you kidding me because I post about it so much? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regardless, you're right, it does suck.

[juanez]

I've never seen, nor heard of any cardroom taking a 2nd buck for the JP. What limit is this on?

1-2 5/5. Standard for 5/5 games in Black Hawk. I don't make the rules....

I consider it a rake.

Yeah, and I see why of course. I think of a "rake" as money taken away from players by the house for the house. All of the "jackpot rake" gets returned to the players eventually. Maybe not to you or me specifically, but it goes to players nonetheless and NOT to the house which was my thinking. This was a pretty minor point of the post anyway, indicated by the "...whatever", so whatever.

This isn't what we call collusion, dude.

What's with the "we", Dude? Maybe you don’t, I do.

Of course jokingly saying things like "I check raise" to the whole table when you check UTG on the flop or "I’ll check and call" is one thing. But when the cards haven’t even been dealt yet and you're discussing your intentions with a specific person across the table?

The whole table groaned when these guys blatantly discussed their little raise, re-raising plan before the cards were even dealt. Planning to raise your friend when you and he have agreed that he would re-raise you when there are players between you isn't collusion? I think the Colorado Div. of Gaming would frown upon this practice if they were standing there watching.

Even if pre-planning the betting and raising of a hand in advance by two players isn’t collusion buy some strict definition, it seems that this compromises the integrity of the game and should not be allowed. The other players at this table certainly thought so. Would you feel comfortable with that?

What if you had a marginal hand worthy of a call preflop, but not a raise. You muck because these guys have announced before they even received cards that they will go crazy raising preflop. The flop comes and you would have hit a full house. Doh! Does that seem good for the game to you?

I shudder to think of you dealing in my game with these thoughts.

A bit mellow dramatic, no? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bernie]

That 'we' is everyone on here who's played the game for any length of time.

[ QUOTE ]
The whole table groaned when these guys blatantly discussed their little raise, re-raising plan before the cards were even dealt. Planning to raise your friend when you and he have agreed that he would re-raise you when there are players between you isn't collusion? I think the Colorado Div. of Gaming would frown upon this practice if they were standing there watching

[/ QUOTE ]

They wouldn't do anything. They'd see 2 maniacs playing cards ramming and jamming. Who might not even look at their hands during the hand. Then they'd wonder why in the hell they were called to the cardroom when it's obvious there's nothing going on. Hope they get a free meal for their trouble.

The other players groaned because they don't like over-aggressive games with idiots in them. Im sure they also groan when someone also hits a miracle on the river blaming the winner of the pot for his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if pre-planning the betting and raising of a hand in advance by two players isn’t collusion buy some strict definition, it seems that this compromises the integrity of the game and should not be allowed. The other players at this table certainly thought so. Would you feel comfortable with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing is compromised as they don't even know their hands yet. Do you even know what collusion is? What it entails? Have you ever seen a maniac game? Doesn't sound like it. If they agreed to do this blind to showdown is this collusion? No.

And yes, I've played in these types of games many times. What next? Are you going to report them for straddling?

[ QUOTE ]
What if you had a marginal hand worthy of a call preflop, but not a raise. You muck because these guys have announced before they even received cards that they will go crazy raising preflop. The flop comes and you would have hit a full house. Doh! Does that seem good for the game to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if? What if? What if? This is such a hindsight and ridiculous scenario it shows how little you know about the game or what you are talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
I shudder to think of you dealing in my game with these thoughts.

A bit mellow dramatic, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's actually reinforced even more by your statements above.

This thread has got to be a troll thread. You got me. I fell for it.

b

[Andy B]

Most rooms keep a little of the jackpot money to cover "administrative expenses."

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Most rooms keep a little of the jackpot money to cover "administrative expenses."

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a good point....as I was pretty sure it's not quite a zero-sum game.
If they are raking the bad-beat jackpot that I'm not likely to hit anyway then it's even worse than a lottery ticket that I'm forced to buy.

I pretty much look at it as $6 that come out of each pot that I win. $4 in rake....$1 tip...and $1 for JP drop.
I'm not seriously considering the EV I get from possibly hitting the JP. If I hit it then GREAT...but I see $6 running aawy from each pot pretty much.


-- I also have never heard of a $2 JP drop. Maybe I just haven't noticed....but I've only ever seen $1 dropped.


-- The dealers at the Horseshoe have a box that they take with them from table to table. So if there's a box for tips it doesn't necessarily mean that they are sharing tips. See if they are taking the box with them. (the box is usually on the dealer's right at HS...I was in the 10 seat last week and kept hitting my freaking knee on it).


-- At first I thought your example was clear collusion too. But then I recalled a guy who said before the hand even finished that he was going to live-straddle the next hand, and the guy next to him said he would live-straddle also...and they encouraged the guy next to them to also raise-it-up blind.

But for some reason I still think that the original example where they are babbling at each other from across the table to cap the betting is more clear-cut 'collusion'....but certainly not in the typical sense.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
At first I thought your example was clear collusion too. But then I recalled a guy who said before the hand even finished that he was going to live-straddle the next hand, and the guy next to him said he would live-straddle also...and they encouraged the guy next to them to also raise-it-up blind.

But for some reason I still think that the original example where they are babbling at each other from across the table to cap the betting is more clear-cut 'collusion'...

[/ QUOTE ]

When I think of collusion, I think of cheating. They are not cheating in any way by doing this.

b

[juanez]

Most rooms keep a little of the jackpot money to cover "administrative expenses."

We keep $0.00 /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Most rooms keep a little of the jackpot money to cover "administrative expenses."

We keep $0.00

[/ QUOTE ]

Some states (NV I believe is one) require that all jackpot funds be returned to the players.

[juanez]

At first I thought your example was clear collusion too. But then I recalled a guy who said before the hand even finished that he was going to live-straddle the next hand, and the guy next to him said he would live-straddle also...and they encouraged the guy next to them to also raise-it-up blind.

But for some reason I still think that the original example where they are babbling at each other from across the table to cap the betting is more clear-cut 'collusion'...


When I think of collusion, I think of cheating. They are not cheating in any way by doing this.

According to the casino (buried deep in "The Book"), you may not verbally induce a fold, a call, a raise, or any other action. It's all called "collusion" according to the powers that be. FWIW, I think this is a little extreme...I personally like when players talk sh*t, and the vast majority of the time simple trash talking isn't stopped. If some guy says, "Pay me off, I hit my flush" the casino isn't going to 86 his butt.

I agree that these two noobs probably didn' have some complex cheating scheme going on (who knows, mabe they did), but blantantly doing what they did is not allowed by the casino plain and simple and the table reaction was a clear indicator that they weren't happy with it either. If another player complained to the floor, I'd have to explain why I didn' stop them and maybe be in deep sheet.

[juanez]

Whooops, I didn't see that you replied until now, so here it goes. And why the animosity? Have I pissed you off in some way before?

That 'we' is everyone on here who's played the game for any length of time.
Except the owners of the Gilpin Casino and the CO Div. of Gaming, who ban this sort of behaviour.

They wouldn't do anything. They'd see 2 maniacs playing cards ramming and jamming....
No, they would see two players PLANNING IN ADVANCE to ram and jam, which is illegal. At least here it is. Maybe elsewhere, planning your bets and raises in advance with your friend is legal. Here we call it collusion.

The other players groaned because they don't like over-aggressive games with idiots in them.
Most games here in CO fit this description. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Nothing is compromised as they don't even know their hands yet. Do you even know what collusion is? What it entails? Have you ever seen a maniac game? Doesn't sound like it. If they agreed to do this blind to showdown is this collusion? No.
No player shall verbally induce another player to make a call, raise or fold. Simply the rules here man. Lay off the insults. Sheeesh.

Are you going to report them for straddling?
Straddling is not allowed at The Gilpin...seriously. So, no I wouldn't report them, because I would not allow them to do it. I'm not a fan of the "no straddle rule", but hey, I just follow the rules....just like the "no verbally inducing bets, raises, etc." rule. Again, ease up...I'M DOING MY FREAKING JOB.

And FWIW, the Div. of Gaming has people they employ who roam around to the different casinos and "pretend" to be the average Joe. They look for the smallest dealer error to report to justify their job, which means I lose my job. So yes, I am anal with the rules as my employer has insisted I be.

What if? What if? What if? This is such a hindsight and ridiculous scenario it shows how little you know about the game or what you are talking about.
No, the rules are put into effect and enforced to cover ALL scenarios, including the one I outlined. More insults....I'm so hurt. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

This thread has got to be a troll thread. You got me. I fell for it.

Whoops - one more insult.

Just curious - I have no clue who you are and I have no malice against you. You ever work in a casino? How about dealing or floor? Just wondering, because no dealers or floor people that I know on this forum have replied to this thread at this point, but you seem to be REALLY PISSED OFF for some odd reason.

Frankly, I thought my original post was a "Hey look - I'm making Noobs happy on their first visit to the Poker Room...that's good for all of us!" post, but you seem to have some serious issue with me personally.

Good luck man. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
Most rooms keep a little of the jackpot money to cover "administrative expenses."

We keep $0.00 /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it is EV 0, not like a lottery ticket anyone is forced to buy.

[bernie]

1st off, sorry if I came off as an A Hole. Im a little under the weather this week. Nothing personal against you. I have a problem with someone saying someone is 'cheating' when they aren't.

[ QUOTE ]
That 'we' is everyone on here who's played the game for any length of time.
Except the owners of the Gilpin Casino and the CO Div. of Gaming, who ban this sort of behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're wrong in doing it, imo.

[ QUOTE ]
They wouldn't do anything. They'd see 2 maniacs playing cards ramming and jamming....
No, they would see two players PLANNING IN ADVANCE to ram and jam, which is illegal. At least here it is. Maybe elsewhere, planning your bets and raises in advance with your friend is legal. Here we call it collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are planning it in advance in the open. They are not hiding their intentions from anyone on the table. They are not sharing information about their hands. What if they never knew eachother? That happens quite a bit.

Around here it's not rare (lower limits) to see 2 guys play a hand blind ramming and jamming/capping to showdown. Agreeing in advance to do this. If you enter these pots, you buckle up and hang on.

[ QUOTE ]
And FWIW, the Div. of Gaming has people they employ who roam around to the different casinos and "pretend" to be the average Joe. They look for the smallest dealer error to report to justify their job, which means I lose my job. So yes, I am anal with the rules as my employer has insisted I be.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these idiots are this strict, then I agree somewhat with your actions in regards to protecting your job. However, I still think it's BS that they think this is collusion or cheating in any way.

[ QUOTE ]
No, the rules are put into effect and enforced to cover ALL scenarios, including the one I outlined.

[/ QUOTE ]

The scenario you presented was completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what 'could've' happened. If this stupid rule is in effect, it's not because someone might 'flop' something.

[ QUOTE ]
You ever work in a casino? How about dealing or floor? Just wondering, because no dealers or floor people that I know on this forum have replied to this thread at this point, but you seem to be REALLY PISSED OFF for some odd reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I work in a casino, but not employed by them. I've played in them for a long time. Through that time, I've come to know many dealers and floor. What pisses me off is someone wrongly accused of cheating. (yes I know you explained the 'rule' above. I still don't agree with it and I don't think I've ever played in a cardroom that has that rule. Not saying it doesn't exist, but where it does, it sucks) This has an effect of killing a potential 'action' table.

b

[bicyclekick]

Apparently most of the 2+2 low limit splash games are cheating then, cause damn, we've got like 18 raises ready before the cards even come out.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently most of the 2+2 low limit splash games are cheating then, cause damn, we've got like 18 raises ready before the cards even come out.

[/ QUOTE ]

One dealer percieved this as cheating at the mucks meeting on dec 31. Even mentioned it adamantly to the floor. I took the dealer aside after their down and explained what was going on.

b

[CourtesyFlush]

I say, "That is what we call collusion guys. If you say that again, you will be removed from the poker room."

This seems a little harsh to threaten removal when it's just a couple guys messing around. I think it would be better to just say "That is called collusion and is against the rules of the casino". I'm sure they had no idea.