Flush draw Questions

[irishpint]

NOTE: I've editted this about 100 times to get it right. Basically I had flush draw and middle pair over the flop, but then the turn and river missed.

1. Should I bet the turn with the flush draw? Should I call his re-raise? Should I re-raise?

2. Should I have folded to his river bet? Raised it?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[yellowjack]

Flush draw? Are you sure this is the right hand?

[irishpint]

I must have copied the wrong thing. I hope this works.

[thesharpie]

Flush draw? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Reads would help. Turn is fine. If he had a gutshot draw he either hit trips or got his straight. I fold the river unless you have reads telling you to do otherwise.

Edit: You changed it while I was posting. I think you messed it up, why on earth would you call with jack high on the river?

[irishpint]

Sorry, I botched this a bunch of times posting it. It *should* be right now. If not, I quit.

[thesharpie]

If it is right, I don't know how you could call that river unless you misclicked.

[aK13]

I hate the raise on the flop. You are making all the players face 2 bets cold. These are the people that are supposed to fund your draw -- go for overcalls here! If you make your flush, you are guaranteed to win the pot (virtually), so why do you want to knock people out? Pump your draw and build the pot!

[cmwck]

I would just call the flop. Since the pot is small, you want to maximize the value you're getting from your flush draw, so get as many overcalls as possible.

I don't mind the turn bet, but would like it a lot more if it wasnt an 8 or 7.

I don't get the river. Are you hoping he was betting with less than jack high?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call the flop. Since the pot is small, you want to maximize the value you're getting from your flush draw, so get as many overcalls as possible.

I don't mind the turn bet, but would like it a lot more if it wasnt an 8 or 7.

I don't get the river. Are you hoping he was betting with less than jack high?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has a pair of 9s on the flop.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the raise on the flop. You are making all the players face 2 bets cold. These are the people that are supposed to fund your draw -- go for overcalls here! If you make your flush, you are guaranteed to win the pot (virtually), so why do you want to knock people out? Pump your draw and build the pot!

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop raise isn't terrible if you think most will call (lets face it, party .50/1 will call anything) and they might then be trapped for a 3-bet. I suppose its debatable, but on a lose table I don't mind the raise. Lets push it while our equity is high, and try and win the pot while we're the favourite.

The rest is simple, OESD + flush is almost always correct to bet with (or even raise).

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the raise on the flop. You are making all the players face 2 bets cold. These are the people that are supposed to fund your draw -- go for overcalls here! If you make your flush, you are guaranteed to win the pot (virtually), so why do you want to knock people out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he could have the best hand, and it's vulnerable. Even if it's not he could get a weak 10, or a 9 with a better kicker to fold. I don't mind the flopraise if SB will bet a gutshot draw here. Also you'll get the same amount of money in the pot if you get one overcaller on the flop and SB calls as you would if you smooth called the flop and everybody called, although you are putting 2 bets in yourself. If the pot was bigger I'd like the flop raise even more.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would just call the flop. Since the pot is small, you want to maximize the value you're getting from your flush draw, so get as many overcalls as possible.

I don't mind the turn bet, but would like it a lot more if it wasnt an 8 or 7.

I don't get the river. Are you hoping he was betting with less than jack high?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has a pair of 9s on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

....and?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]


....and?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should read the post. He refered to jack-high, but the hero actually had a pair of nines.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


....and?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should read the post. He refered to jack-high, but the hero actually had a pair of nines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, on the river, right. I thought you were suggesting that hero having a pair of 9s on the flop affects our flop decision somehow.

[Maurader1]

why not take a free card on the turn? pot is not that big and SB looks like he has a monster, I'd fold the river

[ArturiusX]

Of course it affects our flop decision. We could have the best hand, thus our equity is huge and we should raise.

[thesharpie]

Ah sorry I think I was thinking of the first time he edited his post when I said he had jack high. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
why not take a free card on the turn? pot is not that big and SB looks like he has a monster, I'd fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should we take a free card when we're possibly very ahead of sb?

[aK13]

I still don't like the flop raise.

I understand why you like it, but I'd rather sacrifice my edge to win a bigger pot than 5SB. I'd much rather take my 35% chance to win a 10+SB by playing my flush draw, rather than try to take down the pot now with my marginal hand which I have no clue how it stands in this field.

[Derek132260]

Grunch.

Your pair + flush draw on the flop is quite favorable. Good raise.

His aggression on the turn indicates that he was betting an OESD made good on the turn, possibly a stop 'n' go on a set or a two-pair hit. Your flush draw demands that you call his raise here.

River...at this point, enough bets are in the pot that a mistaken fold would be a bit of a disaster. Without any clear reads on villain and at the limit you're playing, it's not that crazy to believe you'd be calling down a pure bluff or lower pair more than one in every 9.5 times this situation occurs.

[itsmesteve]

Raising the flop is not good, imo. You want all those other players to call too in the hopes you hit your flush.
I certainly wouldn't bet this turn, and after cking behind i'd fold the river UI.

[Malachii]

[ QUOTE ]

I still don't like the flop raise.

I understand why you like it, but I'd rather sacrifice my edge to win a bigger pot than 5SB. I'd much rather take my 35% chance to win a 10+SB by playing my flush draw, rather than try to take down the pot now with my marginal hand which I have no clue how it stands in this field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I would go for overcalls as well.

[Felipe]

blindpost: /images/graemlins/cool.gif

raising the flop was good, unfortunately you didn't get callers to subsidize your drawing to the flush (and not the nut flush, so dropping players might actually help). The turn brought SB a straight, or two pair with T8, 98, T7, or 68 (junk hand the last one, but we don't know SB's playing standards, or it was suited, and s/he thought they could play it for half price, ok,lucky flop then).

The SB checks, there isn't much money in the pot on 4th street - !check! for the free card. (this is probably hindsight, i may have bet, i'm known to be xtra aggro on the turn, I love it when ppl fold, then their miracle card pops on 5th street) So we "check for free card" - in this case we bet, get checkraised. The pot odds are 7.5:1 , plenty to call for your flush, strong two pair, or trips.



He's got Tens up (or trips....meh), you've got nines up. Was the river a good call???? anyone?

felipe

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
why not take a free card on the turn? pot is not that big and SB looks like he has a monster, I'd fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you know this BEFORE he ch/raised?? explain...

[McGahee]

I would just call the flop since you're OOP, have little chance of gaining a free card, and have little chance of buying any extra outs with your J. The turn bet is fine since you're HU and there's only 1 overcard.

[Mister Z]

I'm folding this river. Everything else seems pretty standard to me.

[tiltaholic]

hey irish.
welcome to the forum.
a few thoughts:

1. why are you raising the flop? is it becuase you have middle pair with a relatively weak overcard? is it because you have a flush draw? do you why we tend to pump draws on the flop, and not on the turn?

2. you should post your reads along with your hands. are these oppoenents likely, in your opinion, to call 2 bets on the flop? this makes a difference.

3. if you want unbiased opinions about a certain action, stop the action of the hand at that point. knowing that everyone folded to your flop raise will make people inclined (subconsciously or not) to tell you that you should have just called. it is very hard to avoid this bias, unless you put us in your position of uncertainty.

that said, i think the flop raise is good overall. but calling would be ok too. in the absence of reads, it is not completely out of the question that your microlimit opponents will happily call 2 bets cold on the flop, thus building a large pot for your flush draw. if you get 2 callers in total, you have made money (why?). and there are other benefits to raising as well. however, calling my entice more to stay in, as people have mentioned.

i don't hate the turn semi-bluff since you are heads up. and you now have extra outs for your OESD.

i'd likely fold the river after his turn check raise and missing all your draws. i don't think nines win this 11% of the time (given no reads)

[irishpint]

Looking back on it, I like how I played it. After the flop I felt I had best hand, and wanted to protect it by raising, forcing those behind to call 2 cold- if overcards want to stay, I want them to pay, especially with my flush draw. SB raising the flop was unexpected, but I dont give him much credit for anything, and being on the flush draw I had to call it, or raise it. The river I missed my flush, but with ten high on the board I felt like I might have it with a pair of nines. Alas, he had a ten. One of my weaknesses...when I'm playing against BETTER players I can induce folds by betting/raising. Against weaker calling stations it does no good and I need to finish with the best hand, which I haven't made happen enough.

[GrunchCan]

Given that you raised the flop, betting the turn is good.

Fold the river.