QJs vs a lag in MW pot

[DavidC]

Reads:

UTG just capped to the river with an OESD (including after it busted) and then bullied a few pots to get his stack back up. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MP is unknown.

BB seemed like an okay player, I think at this time he was rated LAP, but only after 13 hands. Here's what I've observed on him:

-He bet to the river on 98sA33 board
-He bet the turn in an unraised pot after no action with turned middle pair and a good kicker (specifically J8s)

My first note on him though, was that he slowed down on the turn vs a raise (called to close the action) with two pair, but then he bet and re-raised the river all in.

So I guess he's got room to improve, but he's not completely clueless or anything. When he was showing down hands, regardless of the weird action, they had a chance at winning.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, SB calls $0.94 (All-In), BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15.44 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (31.44 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 33.44 BB

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My PF play is questionable due to my position. This was an ill-advised (because it wouldn't work, not because it wasn't a good idea) isolation raise to get me HU/SH with the LAG.

Comments?

[ArturiusX]

Standard preflop for mine.

I like the whole thing, the flop is good because we trap a lot of bets. It could be a two pair we're up against, but counterfeit and normal outs will take care of that.

The turn is spewing though. I just call this bet, what are we ahead of that UTG would lead vs our cap?

And a crying call on the river is standard (hopefully counterfeiting a two pair).

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG just capped to the river with an OESD

[/ QUOTE ]

this doesnt change your mind at all? seems like the utg villain is very aggressive and semi bluffs to the max.

[jaxUp]

I just call the turn 3-bet. With 2 others in there, we're in the hurt-locker.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG just capped to the river with an OESD

[/ QUOTE ]

this doesnt change your mind at all? seems like the utg villain is very aggressive and semi bluffs to the max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Semibluffing I can understand, but a semi-cap makes my mouth water. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: BB in the betting to the river on the 98sA33 board had QQ. Sorry.

[DavidC]

morning bump.

[itsmesteve]

Isolation raise this early is a little ambitious with QJs,so i agree with you for exactly the reasons you posted, but i don't think that it is good idea that didn't work, its a BAD IDEA because IT WON"T WORK, imo.

you should stop the action after the maniac bets on the river. It makes it alot easier for me to tell you to raise, thinking no one will call without a nine (helping your potentially vulnerable J kicker) and knowing that UTG could be again capping a busted draw, pair of sixes, whatever. I think the call down by the passive means he's on a draw (which obviously didn't come in). If villain 3 bets, call.

[jrz1972]

I strongly disagree with the PFR. Why do you want to get HU with QJs? You *want* to play this multiway. The fact that the maniac is already in the pot is just gravy, as he'll help you build a pot if the flop hits you.

Change your hand to ATo and I would support an isolation raise. Edit: Actually, even then it would depend on the table. People coldcall so much at .5/1 that it's hard to isolate anybody from EP.

[MrWookie47]

Grunching.

I think you definitely get an A for table selection. Even if you didn't get HU with the maniac, you're packing a solid hand against a bunch of chumps who are willing to call 2 cold with just about anything. I don't hate your preflop play at all.

You couldn't ask for a better spot for the maniac to bet and for you to raise on the flop, or again on the turn, but I think your table has caught the cold calling bug. If this guy is as wild as you say he is, I think capping the flop and turn are great plays, especially with the others along padding the pot so much.

On the river, I'm torn between your line, and putting in one last raise, calling a 3bet. If he's as maniacal as you say, it might be good, but I can't blame you for just calling there. With the second 9 out, there are a fair number of ways to lose, now. Actually, I think that's the best. Nice hand.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you definitely get an A for table selection. Even if you didn't get HU with the maniac, you're packing a solid hand against a bunch of chumps who are willing to call 2 cold with just about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note how this is an argument *against* trying an isolation raise in this position.

[MrWookie47]

If I'm at a table this good, I'm inclined to raise QJs preflop for value, not just for isolation.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm at a table this good, I'm inclined to raise QJs preflop for value, not just for isolation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's understandable; I often raise KJs from this spot so a value-PFR with QJs can't be far off. But that wasn't what the OP was trying to do.

Basically, if OP's isolation play had worked, I would argue he needed to find a new table.

[cold_cash]

The pre-flop play is fine.

If it works to isolate the maniac that's fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too.

[SlantNGo]

No way I raise QJs this early even for the reasons you stated. Limp it, feel free to raise on the flop to blow away the field if you connect.

[HajiShirazu]

Standard, if the guy really is crazy, you've got all those other players in and two pair+ doesn't come around too often, so gambool.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Isolation raise this early is a little ambitious with QJs,so i agree with you for exactly the reasons you posted, but i don't think that it is good idea that didn't work, its a BAD IDEA because IT WON"T WORK, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

you should stop the action after the maniac bets on the river. It makes it alot easier for me to tell you to raise, thinking no one will call without a nine (helping your potentially vulnerable J kicker) and knowing that UTG could be again capping a busted draw, pair of sixes, whatever. I think the call down by the passive means he's on a draw (which obviously didn't come in). If villain 3 bets, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm mildy curious if I should be capping this river, for value. If I had AQ or KQ that would be pretty reasonable.

In my last hand vs a true LAG (I had KK overpair on a JT9 board with massive action) a rivered ace killed me, so I got a little nervous in this hand. It's not good poker, but it's the truth.

I don't think a caller has a 9, nor even a Q, but it's possible. I put them both on busted draws. However, at the time I called, I feared what the remaining caller might do.

They may have been calling with a 9... at a certain point they get tied to the pot and just have to rid it out... but I think at some point before the river they would have folded a naked nine.

That being said, the LAG definitely wouldn't have put down the nine, and the nine represents 1/3 of the flop, so this is why I check-called here.

I was a little surprised by his initial calls on the preflop. Kinda made me nervous. When he didn't re-raise I figured I had the best hand.

At a certain point, you have to decide that you have the best hand or you don't. Against the callers, I'd just have to pray that they didn't have a better Q, but I figured they didn't.

Against the LAG, I don't know that I have the best hand, nor do I have to. I do know that most of the time I will have the best hand, and I'm capping for value all the way down to the river (if the river was a blank I hopefully would have bet into the raiser and called a raise, or checkraised and called a three-bet, with just my pair: I believe this to be the correct play though I'm not sure if I would have had balls to do it).

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you definitely get an A for table selection. Even if you didn't get HU with the maniac, you're packing a solid hand against a bunch of chumps who are willing to call 2 cold with just about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note how this is an argument *against* trying an isolation raise in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the iso raise and for the value raise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm at a table this good, I'm inclined to raise QJs preflop for value, not just for isolation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's understandable; I often raise KJs from this spot so a value-PFR with QJs can't be far off. But that wasn't what the OP was trying to do.

Basically, if OP's isolation play had worked, I would argue he needed to find a new table.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have muddled thinking.

I tried to isolate, but I shouldn't have. Raising for value was the right thing, and I need to work on that more.

I probably also should have checkraised the river when one of the callers dropped... maybe.

The table selection wasn't my doing. I was single tabling, and this table wasn't really super until this guy sat down.

A point I'd like to make here is that the LAG only lasted a few orbits, so PT stats aren't going to do me any good in determining how to play this guy. He'll be dead before I'll get anything reliable.

Observing the table is key to making these plays.

--Dave.

[itsmesteve]

interesting point about capping the river. . . i'm not sure, i guess it depends on the insanity of the lag and whether or not he's paying attention, or, rather, thinks you're paying attention since he tried the cap the river with a busted draw trick just a few hands ago. it would really come down to the read, so i'm willing to go along with it here thinking you'll be good 2/3rds of the time.

[DavidC]

Villain has QT, probably no spades.

MHIG.

Edit (to summarize):

-iso raising is not going to work in EP on a Party 0.5/1 table, most often.

-value raising is good with a table full of loose passives (preflop)... the raise was correct but the reason was wrong.

-capping the hell out of the hand is fine vs a LAG, scary with the callers, but needs to be done

-next time I should grow some chest hair and checkraise the river, probably (still not sure about that).