The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

[The Dude]

For those of you who don't remember this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=2130947&Fo rum=,f20,&Words=Heinlein&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Mai n=2130947&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1& newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post2130947), I recently went to Borders and bought a bunch of Robert Heinlein books. I read Starship Troopers, and it was a fun, quick read, with a decent amount of good reading in there. By good reading I mean something that you're glad you've read when you're finished, not just something that entertained you. I am particularly fond of the parts where Johnnie recalls the discussions from his History and Moral Philosophy classes, and where he works through his philosophical positions on his own. Definately worth reading, and I'm sure I'll get around to rereading it sometime in the future.

The book I just finished tonight, though, was completely fantastic. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (which made famous the phrase "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch") is the first book in awhile to evoke a negative emotion from me. I've felt excitement, anticipation, relief, and other positive emotions quite often from books, but there was a genuine pang of sadness evoked in me by this book, and this hasn't heppened in quite awhile. (I did just read Les Miserables recently, but I knew that story quite well before reading it. Aside from that, it's been a few years since a book has brought up that level of sadness.)

You libertarians would like it, since it tells the story of a very libertarian lunar colony, and paints the picture in a very positive light. It has some interesting spins on political and social issues.

Good quality reading.

[Dead]

You gave us the author's name in the first paragraph.

So, this sentence is unnecessary:

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You libertarians would like it

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[Chairman Wood]

Thank you. As classes are ending my free time will increase. Perhaps, I will check them out.

[jason_t]

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Thank you. As classes are ending my free time will increase. Perhaps, I will check them out.

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Classes ending? F[/i]uck. I still have two more months of classes.

[Dead]

Because California sucks.

[The Dude]

From what I've read of Robert Heinlein, he's good at promoting different social and political causes in different books. For example, Starship Troopers paints in a very positive light a political climate libertarians would likely call fascist.

Which Heinlein works have you read?

[nolanfan34]

Can't you let one thread go by without tossing around some insult in it? Jeez.

[jason_t]

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Because California sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have now cinched the case that you are a f[/i]ucking idiot.

[sublime]

i am adding dead to my igonor user list, i suggest you do thr same.

[Dead]

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From what I've read of Robert Heinlein, he's good at promoting different social and political causes in different books. For example, Starship Troopers paints in a very positive light a political climate libertarians would likely call fascist.

Which Heinlein works have you read?

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Starship Troopers
Podkayne of Mars
The Number of the Beast
Time Enough For Love

[DavidC]

Thanks for the recommendation.

[Blarg]

Your endorsing Heinlein's political spins or finding them interesting brings the entire rest of your credibility on his books seriously into doubt.

That said, Starship Troopers did have some fun, imaginative shoot'em up stuff in it. But what's in it goes through you quicker than than a Taco Bell dinner or a Pauly Shore movie, and is just as worth keeping.

[wacki]

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I read Starship Troopers, and it was a fun, quick read, with a decent amount of good reading in there. By good reading I mean something that you're glad you've read when you're finished, not just something that entertained you. I am particularly fond of the parts where Johnnie recalls the discussions from his History and Moral Philosophy classes, and where he works through his philosophical positions on his own. Definately worth reading, and I'm sure I'll get around to rereading it sometime in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the fight scenes are more realistic? If those troopers knew about the tanks used in WWII they might not of had so much trouble on that distant planet.

[wacki]

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Your endorsing Heinlein's political spins or finding them interesting brings the entire rest of your credibility on his books seriously into doubt.

That said, Starship Troopers did have some fun, imaginative shoot'em up stuff in it. But what's in it goes through you quicker than than a Taco Bell dinner or a Pauly Shore movie, and is just as worth keeping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch. Please explain more. I've thought about reading that book but I don't want to waste my time.

[Blarg]

There's a lot of very extended passages of hugely self-satisfied, bloated fascist-flavored political pontificating. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Which I don't mind if the thoughts are particularly vibrant or deep, but you don't get that there. Sometimes I've felt it clear that Heinlein just doesn't like people; I Will Fear No Evil certainly got that across too.

Anyway, it's a lot to force your readers through, and I didn't think it the mark of a good author that doing so at such length didn't seem to bother Heinlein one bit. Apparently he thought heaping helpings of his political blather less groan-worthy than a lot of his readers famously do, and I found it a big chore wading through that muck to get to the fun stuff with the lasers and nukes and powered armor and such. And that stuff, actually was really very good. It's a shame there was so little of it, and what there was was padded out with such dull, schoolboy politics.

I would say it's worth a read for the imaginative parts, if you really like that kind of thing and are the forgiving type when it comes to bad writing and childish self-indulgent political nutballs. If you're looking for a really good work, Starship Troopers isn't the place to find it. It's got some fun in it, and you can feel free to skip a whole lot of pages.

[wacki]

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to get to the fun stuff with the lasers and nukes and powered armor and such. And that stuff, actually was really very good. It's a shame there was so little of it,

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I take it the movie didn't have any of that fun or "very good" stuff?

[Blarg]

It did, and what's more it had Denise Richards in it, which is one of my main criteria for seeing any movie. It's worth a rental.

When you see the professor lecturing in that movie, imagine it being drawn out endlessly, and done worse, to get a feel of what the book is like.

[The Dude]

Wacki, I didn't get the feeling that Heinlein was "heeping loads of political banter" on me at all. Nor did I find those parts of the book were long and hard to trudge through. It was a quick read, one that you should be able to get through in one or two sittings if you read fast at all. Not much of a time risk as far as reading books go.

That said, it wasn't as good or thought provoking as The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. I'm not sure why Blarg thinks it my finding his political spins interesting puts "the entire rest of [my] credibility on his books seriously into doubt." Well, those are a big part of his books, so yeah, I'd say whether you find those interesting or not plays a big part in whether you like his books. As for "endorsing Heinlein's political spins," I don't. I just find them interesting to chew on - there are some good points made.

[Gin 'n Tonic]

If you want to read an interesting conterpoint to Starship Troopers then check out Joe Haldeman's The Forever War. This is a cracking read and has been described as the post-Vietnam version of Starship Troopers.

Seriously - check it out, I promise that you won't be disappointed.

[MrFeelNothin]

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.......hmmm.......where did I read that book........OH YEAH I REMEMBER! I was reading it on the deck of my room on an Alaskan cruise ship the summer before freshman year. My brother, who was rooming with me, decided to lock the sliding door to the deck when he went to sleep. He also decided to be the heaviest sleeper I have ever met.

That was the coldest and longest night of my life, the best part though was when my bro woke up the next morning and saw/heard me outside. The look on his face was priceless, he must have almost crapped his pants. Luckily Im a nice, forgiving brother. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Good book though!

[JMP300z]

Great book. Starship troopers is great also.

Ive also read Stranger in a Strange land by Heinlein. Pretty good although drag a bit late as it gets pretty wild.

-JP

[Jazza]

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I take it the movie didn't have any of that fun or "very good" stuff?

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the directors of the movie actually made it a paraody of fascismn

[Chobohoya]

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I take it the movie didn't have any of that fun or "very good" stuff?

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The movie has some things going for it: Denise Richards and ...... nope that's it. The book is mostly about blowing [censored] up and glorifying of a paternalistic military quasi-republic. The political theories espoused in the book aren't really heavy-hitting. I also believe they're not so much fascist as anti-communist, which makes sense, given Heinlien's political views. The book actually reminds me of state department videos from the 50's (which explains many of the director's choices in the movie). An example of this is the way Heinlein depicts a jazz band on the Rodger Young-- like anyone's going to be playing Dave Brubeck-type jazz in a hundred years.

I might as well note that I loved the book. I also highly recommend The Forever War, if you like Starship Troopers.

[StevieG]

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Ive also read Stranger in a Strange land by Heinlein. Pretty good although drag a bit late as it gets pretty wild.


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Definitely the biggest flaw in "Stranger in a Strange Land" is the meandering conclusion. To some extent, "Citizen of the Galaxy" suffers from this, too.

Both of those books also expound on different social, economic, and political arrangements, like "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Starship Troopers" do.

And of course, the omnipresent "crafty, wise old guy" character that always seems to be around and objects to statements with the reply, "So?"

I think Heinlein was as interested in speculating in socioeconomic and political models as he was in speculating in future technology. I don't think he necessarily advocated all of them.

All that said, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is my favorite that I have read. The action scenes are crisp, the story tense, the political drama believable, the character of Mike and his relation to Manny rings true, and the ending as good as Heinlein gets.

Anyone read"The Cat who Walked through Walls?" Is that worth picking up?

[swolfe]

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There's a lot of very extended passages of hugely self-satisfied, bloated fascist-flavored political pontificating. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Which I don't mind if the thoughts are particularly vibrant or deep, but you don't get that there. Sometimes I've felt it clear that Heinlein just doesn't like people; I Will Fear No Evil certainly got that across too.

Anyway, it's a lot to force your readers through, and I didn't think it the mark of a good author that doing so at such length didn't seem to bother Heinlein one bit. Apparently he thought heaping helpings of his political blather less groan-worthy than a lot of his readers famously do, and I found it a big chore wading through that muck to get to the fun stuff with the lasers and nukes and powered armor and such. And that stuff, actually was really very good. It's a shame there was so little of it, and what there was was padded out with such dull, schoolboy politics.

I would say it's worth a read for the imaginative parts, if you really like that kind of thing and are the forgiving type when it comes to bad writing and childish self-indulgent political nutballs. If you're looking for a really good work, Starship Troopers isn't the place to find it. It's got some fun in it, and you can feel free to skip a whole lot of pages.

[/ QUOTE ]

starship troopers was written specifically to protest the agreement we made with the soviet union to stop nuclear weapons testing. he understood fully that they weren't going to abide by the agreement (and they didn't), and that we'd be unprepared should the cold war turn into something hotter.

the entire book is examining patriotism and why we should care about the country that we live in. he's also trying to show that we need to be militarily prepared because even if we don't want war, another country/alien race/whatever will eventually bring it to us.

as for the movie, Paul Verhoeven says that he originally wanted to do a WW2 movie examining hitler's facism and propeganda. no one wnated to fund that...so someone suggested doing a space movie and someone who didn't understand the book suggested that starship troopers would be a good one to use. the movie has nothing to do with at all to do with the book. he just took his WW2 story and used character names from the book.

[swolfe]

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I might as well note that I loved the book. I also highly recommend The Forever War, if you like Starship Troopers.

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another good one is Armor by John Stakely

[swolfe]

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Anyone read"The Cat who Walked through Walls?" Is that worth picking up?

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yeah, it's good. some of the others should probably be read first cause he does the strange thing of tying in several of his other (almost completely unrelated) books.

[Shajen]

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I might as well note that I loved the book. I also highly recommend The Forever War, if you like Starship Troopers.

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another good one is Armor by John Stakely

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Outside of myself and the friend who recommended it to me, you are the only other person I know of who read Armor. Good book, slow in some parts.

[Worrots]

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the directors of the movie actually made it a paraody of fascism

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Thereby missing the point of the book.

Don't judge the book by the movie. Two different stand alone works.

[tripdad]

post again when the movie comes out.

cheers!

[CORed]

Heinlein is one of my favorite authors, and IMO "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is his best work. I would rate "Time Enough for Love" as a close second. "Stranger in a Strange Land" is also good. In fact, just about anything he wrote is worth reading, although most of the books he wrote in the '50's were intended for children. Two fairly short, and very good adult novels written in the '50's were "The Puppet Masters" and "Double Star". There was a movie made of "The Puppet Masters" several years ago, which absolutely butchered it. Too bad, I think it would make a great movie if it was done right. I think "The Puppet Masters" may have been intended as an anti-Communist metaphor, but it works pretty well on the horror-science fiction level. From what I've read of his non-fiction essays, I think the libertarion society portrayed in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" comes pretty close to his political ideals, but, as a science fiction writer, he explored a lot of political systems.

Another interesting thing about Heinlein. A short story he wrote in 1942 or 1943 (I'm not sure of the title, it might have been "Solution Unsatisfactory") portrayed the U.S winning WWII by using nuclear weapons, followed by a nuclear arms race between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Of course, a lot of the details didn't match what actually happened: The nuclear weapon was a radioactive dust that killed people, and it was used against Germany, but it was still a pretty good prediction on the high level.