99...now what?

[jah0550]

This was a $50 SNG. After the flop, I figured that I probably had the best hand. Since the turn was a blank, was it correct to push or should I have folded a long time ago, ie. when the SB bet on the flop? I called his flop bet with the intention of bluffing on the turn. Sort of a "slow and go." Does anyone else play this hand the way that I did? Who could put the villian on what he had, because I guarantee that no one will be able to put him on the hand that he had.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t825)
CO (t745)
Hero (t745)
SB (t770)
BB (t675)
UTG (t1040)
UTG+1 (t745)
MP1 (t1600)
MP2 (t855)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t60</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t30, MP3 calls t30, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t285) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls t150.

Turn: (t585) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t225</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t465 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t15.

River: (t1515) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1515

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ks Kh (one pair, kings).
Hero has 9d 9h (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins t1515. </font>

[jah0550]

Who the hell min raises on level II with KK with 3 limpers already in the pot. Not to mention that he was way out of position. It is amazing at the level of play at the $50s. I just hope to run into this idiot again!

[jah0550]

The villian's name was eightP if anyone cares.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Who the hell min raises on level II with KK with 3 limpers already in the pot. Not to mention that he was way out of position. It is amazing at the level of play at the $50s. I just hope to run into this idiot again!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this sarcastic? You played the hand horribly, fold on the flop.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Who could put the villian on what he had, because I guarantee that no one will be able to put him on the hand that he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think he didn't have some sort of Tx, JJ-AA, 55, 33 here? All of those hands have been mini-raised by players at the 55's. He bet the flop/turn and yet you still raised the turn where he'd most likely not be able to fold even with overs. If you were thinking of raising here, you should have done it on the flop, and if you were thinking of stealing this pot from him it might have been easier if you acted first where you could check/call the flop bet, and bet the turn. Or check/raise the flop instead. I'm going to post this and edit in a sec when I find a perfect hand like this to show you how to play this instead if you really did think you had the best hand.

Edit:
#Game No : 1917838867
***** Hand History for Game 1917838867 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:11433665 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Tuesday, April 19, 05:46:11 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 #983811 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Who100 ( $1135 )
Seat 2: NoLimit ( $1115 )
Seat 3: ViK18 ( $1560 )
Seat 8: goodLgirl ( $870 )
Seat 4: Kogen ( $1135 )
Seat 7: SwiftSteal ( $970 )
Seat 5: ZebraAss ( $830 )
Seat 10: Gregernaut ( $2385 )
Trny:11433665 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
SwiftSteal calls [30].
goodLgirl folds.
Gregernaut raises [90].
Who100 folds.
NoLimit folds.
ViK18 folds.
Kogen folds.
ZebraAss folds.
SwiftSteal calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 5s, 6s ]
SwiftSteal checks.
Gregernaut bets [150].
SwiftSteal calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
SwiftSteal bets [275].
Gregernaut raises [550].
SwiftSteal calls [275].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
SwiftSteal is all-In [180]
Gregernaut calls [180].
SwiftSteal shows [ 8c, 8h ] three of a kind, eights.
Gregernaut shows [ Kc, Kh ] a pair of kings.
SwiftSteal wins 1985 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, eights.
Game #1917841159 starts.

Here's the comment next hand:

SwiftSteal: guess i was wrong, lol

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who the hell min raises on level II with KK with 3 limpers already in the pot. Not to mention that he was way out of position. It is amazing at the level of play at the $50s. I just hope to run into this idiot again!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this sarcastic? You played the hand horribly, fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is amazing at the level of play at the $50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to post this and edit in a sec when I find a perfect hand like this to show you how to play this instead if you really did think you had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes the hand you posted significantly different from the OP?

[pooh74]

Sort of a "slow and go." Does anyone else play this hand the way that I did?

yeah...villain.

[infinite_loop]

Look at the min raise from the BB pre-flop. What does that tell you? AK? No. JJ or QQ? No. AA or KK? Yep.

With the pre-flop min raise and betting half the pot on the flop with a pretty low board screams AA or KK.

This should be an easy fold on the flop.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to post this and edit in a sec when I find a perfect hand like this to show you how to play this instead if you really did think you had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes the hand you posted significantly different from the OP?

[/ QUOTE ]

SwiftSteal = very good player who put opponent on high cards, or some sort of missed hand where his PP was the best hand (even with the over on board). Forget about the results in the hand and that he got lucky at the river.

He was in another position though which would accomplish the OP's wishes easier in this situation (IMHO) than being last to act here.



From OP: "This was a $50 SNG. After the flop, I figured that I probably had the best hand. Since the turn was a blank, was it correct to push or should I have folded a long time ago, ie. when the SB bet on the flop? I called his flop bet with the intention of bluffing on the turn. Sort of a "slow and go." Does anyone else play this hand the way that I did? Who could put the villian on what he had, because I guarantee that no one will be able to put him on the hand that he had."

[EverettKings]

You have two options as I see it. Fold the flop, and push the flop. I vote fold.

Calling the flop intending to bluff the turn is a bad idea. The pot will be around 500 and he will certainly lead some of his 450 stack into you. There is no way you can expect to get him off of any hand on the turn. If you think he is full of it (and you'd need some kind of a read to do this), the time to take the pot from him is on the flop.

But I still don't like pushing. He could have a lot of hands on the flop, but it doesn't look like he's going away and I highly doubt that he leads like that into 3 players without at least the T. JTs, AT, JJ, AA, a set, lots of crap plays like that. The only hand that you're beating that might make that play is two big hearts, but even then you're only about even money with him and he isn't folding.

In short, he's not folding and you're probably beat. And if not, hes likely drawing very live. Save your chips for another day.

-Kings

[prepotency]

I'm not even sure if I'm playing this to a PF raise - I understand calling here because you called the BB before the raise - so you're in the pot now: one overcard flops, you fold. You really just want to hit your set or fold anyways, it's too early to be playing this aggressive with a marginal pair IMO.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the min raise from the BB pre-flop. What does that tell you? AK? No. JJ or QQ? No. AA or KK? Yep.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously haven't played enough sit n gos. I see this play with a whole range of crap. Yes, sometimes it's AA or KK, but often its a drawing hand that wants to build a pot or some idiot with AK or TT. You can't be giving him credit for those just because he min raised.

His bet on the flop says that he wants protection. More likely to be AT or JJ than AA or KK. Nonetheless, hero should get out.

-Kings

[TheUsher]

In response to:

Poster: Unarmed
Subject: Re: 99...now what?

Quote:

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
SwiftSteal bets [275].
Gregernaut raises [550].
SwiftSteal calls [275].


I'm lost... you have 88 right?



------

Eh? I wasn't the one in the hand and yes SwiftSteal had 88. Forget that the other dude had KK as in other cases, he could have many other hands that 88 was in the lead. My whole point was to show the hand to illustrate the intentions for the hand that SwiftSteal had, which were similar to OP's.

[curtains]

My favorite is when people get upset about the way their opponent played a hand thus completely discounting the fact that they might have certain hands because there is no way they would play them like "this".

After that, they throw away all their money because of this read, and yet still insist that the opponent is the one who's an idiot.

[curtains]

Actually I have a funny story about this from the WSOP last year, one of the 1k NL buyins. There was this guy who I believe came in 3rd in a wpt event (although I wasn't sure if it was him, but if it was he played terribly).

Anyway blinds were like 100-200, and someone went allin utg for 900. So this very aggressive player with a lot of chips in middle position, thinks for about 30 seconds to a minute and finally just calls. The BB decides to call also. The flop comes QJ9!!!! The BB makes a small bet of like 600 or so and he aggressive player who called for 900 preflop now puts the other player allin for about 2500-3000. The BB calls almost instantly. What were the hands??
MP has TT
BB has 77!!!!

BB now goes NUTS, upset that the MP player THOUGHT preflop, saying there is no way he should have TT otherwise why the hell did he have to even think preflop. Seriously the guy was mad at him for thinking for 45 seconds preflop because it ruined his genius read and insisting how stupid he was for not calling immediately.


(Also I can think of maybe 1-2 other hands that can beat 77 here, where the player may have had to think preflop)

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]

My favorite is when people get upset about the way their opponent played a hand thus completely discounting the fact that they might have certain hands because there is no way they would play them like "this".

After that, they throw away all their money because of this read, and yet still insist that the opponent is the one who's an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's always the best. Makes me want to get into that whole next level manipulating the time to mess with people's heads and their reads. This must be the key to winning at the higher levels. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

BTW, I have a special fondness for your nick cuz of the fact you joined on 5/4/03 (my anniversary with girlfriend). Not trying to be gay or anything but it's easier for me to remember it when I see it every other thread. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Misfire]

I'm still a little lost with your example.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were thinking of raising here, you should have done it on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
BB bets t150
Hero calls t150.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop **
Gregernaut bets [150].
SwiftSteal calls [150].

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't question that SwiftSteal is a good player, but other than villan being the raiser on the turn (and the position difference) I don't see the real contrast between this line and OP's. Not being critical, just trying to understand. I still see this from the "no set, no bet" perspective, so I would have folded the flop.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]

(Also I can think of maybe 1-2 other hands that can beat 77 here, where the player may have had to think preflop)

[/ QUOTE ]

BB was an idiot on that hand and was probably hoping MP had AT or something. Wayyyy too many hands beat 77 there for me to even call, much less insta-call there. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW, your "SB has TT BB has 77!!!! " part confused me a bit since SB=MP right?

[infinite_loop]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, sometimes it's AA or KK, but often its a drawing hand that wants to build a pot or some idiot with AK or TT. You can't be giving him credit for those just because he min raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm saying this after knowing his pre-flop and flop bet. I could see this being a draw a very small amount of time. Obviously this is a push or fold scenario, so I don't see how you would ever go this direction.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still a little lost with your example.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were thinking of raising here, you should have done it on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
BB bets t150
Hero calls t150.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop **
Gregernaut bets [150].
SwiftSteal calls [150].

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't question that SwiftSteal is a good player, but other than villan being the raiser on the turn (and the position difference) I don't see the real contrast between this line and OP's. Not being critical, just trying to understand. I still see this from the "no set, no bet" perspective, so I would have folded the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to expand even more since I might be confusing everyone... SwiftSteal thought he had the best hand. The best way for him to play it would most likely be to check/call the flop bet and bet into him on the turn. When he was raised, he technically should have folded but he went with his read there, evidenced by the fact that he said this in chat after: SwiftSteal: guess i was wrong, lol .

I also did say that you could raise the flop in the OP's example if you really really really believed you had the best hand (which isn't exactly easy nor 100% possible) but I was basing the raising comment I made on the fact OP thought he had the best hand. I'd also most likely follow the "no set, no bet" rule here unless of course I felt I knew the player well enough to believe I'd have the best hand here a large enough percentage of the time.

If this isn't clear enough, then I'm really sorry and I'll try and delete my posts in this thread as I'm feeling like a politician here trying to find the proper, exact words and trying not to say something wrong. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
In response to:

Poster: Unarmed
Subject: Re: 99...now what?

Quote:

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
SwiftSteal bets [275].
Gregernaut raises [550].
SwiftSteal calls [275].


I'm lost... you have 88 right?



------

Eh? I wasn't the one in the hand and yes SwiftSteal had 88. Forget that the other dude had KK as in other cases, he could have many other hands that 88 was in the lead. My whole point was to show the hand to illustrate the intentions for the hand that SwiftSteal had, which were similar to OP's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Swift buthered this hand if you ask me...
Then again, he may have a lock read on Villain as a maniac so perhaps it makes sense on some level.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In response to:

Poster: Unarmed
Subject: Re: 99...now what?

Quote:

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
SwiftSteal bets [275].
Gregernaut raises [550].
SwiftSteal calls [275].


I'm lost... you have 88 right?



------

Eh? I wasn't the one in the hand and yes SwiftSteal had 88. Forget that the other dude had KK as in other cases, he could have many other hands that 88 was in the lead. My whole point was to show the hand to illustrate the intentions for the hand that SwiftSteal had, which were similar to OP's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Swift buthered this hand if you ask me...
Then again, he may have a lock read on Villain as a maniac so perhaps it makes sense on some level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gregernaut is one of the more solid opponents you'll find at the step 5's so I've seen. This might lead you to believe though that Swift has a good enough read on his play. I will admit that this hand is VERY different than a hand played at say a 11-33 where it's with 2 random opponents.

P.S. Your avatar is probably the best one on the forum. /images/graemlins/grin.gif That's one of her all-time greatest pictures.

[Unarmed]

Yeah no kidding.

When someone raises PF, bets the flop, and then raises me when I show a ton of strength by calling flop, leading turn when a brick falls I don't normally assume my 8s are good...

I don't play the 1000s though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
SwiftSteal thought he had the best hand. The best way for him to play it would most likely be to check/call the flop bet and bet into him on the turn. When he was raised, he technically should have folded but he went with his read there, evidenced by the fact that he said this in chat after: SwiftSteal: guess i was wrong, lol .

I also did say that you could raise the flop in the OP's example if you really really really believed you had the best hand (which isn't exactly easy nor 100% possible) but I was basing the raising comment I made on the fact OP thought he had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you believe you have the best hand here (and like both SwiftSteal and OP, trust your read enough not to fold), should you check/call the flop and bet the turn, or should you raise the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
If this isn't clear enough, then I'm really sorry and I'll try and delete my posts in this thread as I'm feeling like a politician here trying to find the proper, exact words and trying not to say something wrong. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a presidential candidate who had the same problem... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SwiftSteal thought he had the best hand. The best way for him to play it would most likely be to check/call the flop bet and bet into him on the turn. When he was raised, he technically should have folded but he went with his read there, evidenced by the fact that he said this in chat after: SwiftSteal: guess i was wrong, lol .

I also did say that you could raise the flop in the OP's example if you really really really believed you had the best hand (which isn't exactly easy nor 100% possible) but I was basing the raising comment I made on the fact OP thought he had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you believe you have the best hand here (and like both SwiftSteal and OP, trust your read enough not to fold), should you check/call the flop and bet the turn, or should you raise the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
If this isn't clear enough, then I'm really sorry and I'll try and delete my posts in this thread as I'm feeling like a politician here trying to find the proper, exact words and trying not to say something wrong. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a presidential candidate who had the same problem... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on my position but I'd most likely do the same as SwiftSteal in his one hand. A raise on the flop would seem like a distant second option though.

[jah0550]

So, you would min raise KK in the SB on level II with 3 limpers in the pot? How many times have you seen an idiot limp with a hand like A4s(because it was soooted)? This raise says nothing, because who would fold to this raise when they will be getting better than 5-1 pot odds(not to mention the implied odds)? I would call this even if I had a hand like 910s if I was getting 8-1 on the call. Everyone is saying things like "I see min raises with AA and KK all the time." Who does that? I never min raised AA or KK in level 2 in my entire life.

[jah0550]

So, SwiftSteal's play was fine, but mine was terrible? What the hell is the difference? We played the exact same way. We both made incorrect reads, he got lucky, and I didn't. Period.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you would min raise KK in the SB on level II with 3 limpers in the pot? How many times have you seen an idiot limp with a hand like A4s(because it was soooted)? This raise says nothing, because who would fold to this raise when they will be getting better than 5-1 pot odds(not to mention the implied odds)? I would call this even if I had a hand like 910s if I was getting 8-1 on the call. Everyone is saying things like "I see min raises with AA and KK all the time." Who does that? I never min raised AA or KK in level 2 in my entire life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man are we going back to this? I've never mini-raised KK/AA there and I never will. That doesn't mean I'm like everyone else though and I have seen ALL those types of hands mini-raised like I said in my original post, as well as complete crap. You may have never seen it yet, but trust me, play a ton more SNG's and you'll see lots of stupid things.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you would min raise KK in the SB on level II with 3 limpers in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you upset because he made a bad raise or because he didn't give you an obvious read?

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
So, SwiftSteal's play was fine, but mine was terrible? What the hell is the difference? We played the exact same way. We both made incorrect reads, he got lucky, and I didn't. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you honestly think I was trying to bash you for playing terrible, you're wrong. I was only explaining different ways to play the hand and providing a close enough example of a hand that popped in my head while reading yours. If you don't think I have anything useful to say, then feel free to ignore me from now on.

I'm now not replying to this thread any longer as it has already taken up way too much of my time. I am a nice guy and do always try to help though, as many here could probably tell you. Good day to you sir.

[Bigwig]

This is an easy fold postflop.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
So, SwiftSteal's play was fine, but mine was terrible? What the hell is the difference? We played the exact same way. We both made incorrect reads, he got lucky, and I didn't. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that SS was in a far better position to reconsider his read and fold on the turn when he still had some chips, while *also* not giving AK a river card.

Your checkraise giving the other guy something like a billion to one odds to call with anything accomplishes neither of those things.

[Gigabet]

I don't know which of these threads this response falls under, but it basically a responds to the general idea that swiftsteals 88 and jah0550's 99 were similar.

First off, this line that Swiftsteal plays is "my" line. It is my most common line when I am out of position, in fact, there are situations where I play a hand I normally wouldn't against a certain player, just because I happen to be out of position, which makes this line readily available. I could easily write 100 pages about the intracacies of this line, but I will spare you all the boring details.

I am surprised that with all the poker knowledge spread throughout this thread not one person mentioned the only thing that made these two hands incomparable. Position, because jon cannot act first on the turn, he always has to raise or fold the flop, unless of course he has a dead read on the guy that makes him on something that would be very difficult to catch up.

The check call and lead out play was refined by me and a couple other players because there are alot of times that JJ and Ak look exactly alike when you are reading betting patterns, so of course, if you are against anyone who is even halfway tough, you will always be mucking middle pairs on the flop without improvement, which seems like an awful waste of strength, if they are on just two overcards. The standard idea is to raise the flop, to gain information, find out where a player is at, but because there just isn't enough stack in play, you would always be raising either too little or too much relative to your stack size vs the size of the pot, basically, if you don't raise 3x his bet(if he makes a decent size bet that is, 2/3 of the pot at least) then you are giving him the enough odds to call the raise with just two overcards, if he can put you on one pair, which at that point is fairly easy to do. Now the turn card comes, you have made a raise, he has called, and suppose you see an offsuit Q hit the board, you have a pot that is now almost large enough to send u to the final three. Now you are the one faced with all of the decision making...because he acts first. If he is experienced at all, he makes no choices, but gives them all to you, just bet around 1/3 of whatever is left in your stack, or 2/3 of the pot(whichever would make more "sense"), and he just forced you to make a decisiont for all your chips.

But with the ck and call play, we don't play the hand in position, we play it only out of position. Pot size management, if you will, great for fast structures and small starting stacks holding a marginal hand in a HU situation.

The problem with the 99 is everything that I mentioned above, which is why I try and avoid situations like that, because even a less experienced player probably is going to accidentally force you to make all of the tough decisions. When you ck and call then lead out, your lead out only has to be substantial enough to take away odds, which, if he isn't home, then you do not have to worry about trying to battle for a monster pot, they will almost always let it go if they miss, and they will almost always smooth call if they are home(or picked up another draw). Obviously, swiftsteal screwed up by not realizing that her lead out, while forcing her opponent to make a decision, left her with no choices when he raised, she had no decisions to make, she was forced to depend on her read that she would catch her set on the river:) I think she was thrown off by the raise, people just don't min raise 1 pair in that spot. So she thought he was being slightly "stupid" tricky, cause he knows that he cannot make a raise that only leaves 180 left in her stack, especially if it is a min raise.

The 99 hand, while is easy to play with a decent amount of chips, is almost impossible to play in the structure you are shown here, ck raise all in on the flop, or at least ck raise showing commitment to your stack, or just fold. You don't have enough chips to gain info on one street.

Not sure if I was totally clear here, but it should give the original poster a better idea of what is really going to happen when he gets into a raised pot with a marginal hand.

Gigabet

[john_]

[ QUOTE ]
I could easily write 100 pages about the intracacies of this line, but I will spare you all the boring details.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insightful, I'd read every detail of the 100 pages you'd write on this line...probably multiple times.

[ QUOTE ]
First off, this line that Swiftsteal plays is "my" line.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So she thought he was being slightly "stupid" tricky, cause he knows that he cannot make a raise that only leaves 180 left in her stack, especially if it is a min raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, so you're saying you aren't swiftsteal?

[Gigabet]

I simply said my line because I use it more than any other line. Don't read too much into it, and the thread is about a very interesting hand, not about me. These are the reasons I don't like to post much.

[Degen]

get a new nick for 2+2

Degen