My turn to misplay KQ

[Phil Van Sexton]

This is 2 hands after the JJ hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2189522&Main=2189227#Post 2189522). In that hand, the button raised, I pushed from the BB with JJ, and he called me with KQ and lost.

I thought that was awful by him. In a twist of fate, now I have KQ on the button. Can I do any better?

Background:
- Villain hadn't been involved in any big hands. He min-raised once at level 2 and limped on several other occasions, but never showed a hand.
- I had been the button once already at level 3. Folded to me with AKs. I raise to 150, blinds fold.
- On the previous hand, the Villian limped UTG and called a 175 raise from the BB. BB checks the flop, villian bets 2/3 pot, BB min-checkraises, villian mucks.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2990)
BB (t585)
UTG (t1150)
MP1 (t1335)
MP2 (t655)
CO (t1180)
Hero (t2105)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t585 (All-In)</font>, Hero ???

[Apathy]

I might be the only one, but I think you have to call this. Especially since you raised the same guy on this level last time on the button, you stand to do well against his hand range. Your getting great pot odds, and if you lose 430 more chips that's not such a big deal since you will still have a good stack for level 4 and 5.

[syka16]

Gotta call with a hand with over .36 equity against his push range. KQo should be good.

[Apathy]

Oh, and also folding this kills some of your folding equity later on, since people will see this as a steal, but if you call the fish will say... OHHH he wasn't stealing he had a *monster* like KQ.

[gasgod]

You're almost certainly behind, but you have to call with these odds. JMHO

GG

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I might be the only one, but I think you have to call this. Especially since you raised the same guy on this level last time on the button, you stand to do well against his hand range. Your getting great pot odds, and if you lose 430 more chips that's not such a big deal since you will still have a good stack for level 4 and 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did call, of course. Maybe I should have asked the question differently.

My only decision was whether to fold preflop or not. When I bet 150, I had already decided I would call if the BB pushed.

What would you do preflop here?

[curtains]

I would have done the same. No way I'm folding KQo on the button!!!! And you have to call the reraise.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

What would you do preflop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

So....Phil is asking about pre-flop play?!?! Wowie zowie!!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Generally on level 3 I will fold or call with KQ in $33s and lower. Above that buyin I'd probably be more likely to fold or raise it.

In this situation I'd most likely limp. Most BB's aren't sophisticated enough to pull a 'Phil Van Sexton' on me and are likely to spew chips if I hit the flop (either b/c they hit it too or they bet later streets). Also, the SB will be encouraged to come along for the ride....if he's got a weaker K or Q, I'm gonna take quite a few of his chips too.

I don't mind folding here at all, btw.

I don't think raising is worth it at all in this situation...the risk/reward isn't juicy enough for me.

Yugoslav

[Newt_Buggs]

Before reading this post I would have definitly raised, but now I think that limping (or folding depending on the table) is the best play. I really don't want to create an image of a blind stealer just to take a stab at 75 chips with a marginally good hand. Limping puts you in good shape to catch a good flop or try a position bet.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Before reading this post I would have definitly raised, but now I think that limping (or folding depending on the table) is the best play. I really don't want to create an image of a blind stealer just to take a stab at 75 chips with a marginally good hand. Limping puts you in good shape to catch a good flop or try a position bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think the chances are you're gonna get popped by the BB with his stack?

Not a loaded question, just curious.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do preflop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not sure it makes much difference but I would have made it 175 to go instead of 150, but I certaintly would have raised. Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

[pooh74]

Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

That might be a bit overstated...in fact, IF you believe limping is "tragic" then raising is as well. Actually, i retract that, raising will definitely fold the SB, barring a monster, which is huge, granted. But i dont think the gap is applying much more to bb here. IOW I dont think there are many hands that he'd fold to a raise that he wouldnt pop a limp with.

[Irieguy]

I don't know, your background story makes it sound like the villain is getting tired of getting pushed around. I imagine you thought he was likely to push at you.

If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go? If a shark is in the SB, you're screwed... but usually the SB will just let you race villy unless he has a biggie.

Usually against this type of player I would consider limping because it would be quite easy to win the pot even if I miss, and I could double up with top pair... but because of the recent history, I wouldn't do this. It wouldn't be tragic, as Apathy says, however.

I never like raising into somebody that I think will push (unless I'm trapping)... if I'm a-gonna-race, I'm-a-gonna get'em in first.

Irieguy

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
- Villain hadn't been involved in any big hands. He min-raised once at level 2 and limped on several other occasions, but never showed a hand.
- I had been the button once already at level 3. Folded to me with AKs. I raise to 150, blinds fold.
- On the previous hand, the Villian limped UTG and called a 175 raise from the BB. BB checks the flop, villian bets 2/3 pot, BB min-checkraises, villian mucks.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think this is sufficient information to assume that the BB will push. The BB will very likely only push with decent hands here and not decide that because you raised from the button once before, now is the time to take a stand with J8s.

I'd be careful of assuming your opponent is going to do something here that isn't based on his hand strength.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, your background story makes it sound like the villain is getting tired of getting pushed around. I imagine you thought he was likely to push at you.

If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go? If a shark is in the SB, you're screwed... but usually the SB will just let you race villy unless he has a biggie.

Usually against this type of player I would consider limping because it would be quite easy to win the pot even if I miss, and I could double up with top pair... but because of the recent history, I wouldn't do this. It wouldn't be tragic, as Apathy says, however.

I never like raising into somebody that I think will push (unless I'm trapping)... if I'm a-gonna-race, I'm-a-gonna get'em in first.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]


He was getting low on chips and I did steal his blind last time, so I figured he wouldn't hesitate if he picked up a decent hand. On the other hand, I didn't really think he would go out of his way to push because he wasn't really standing out as an aggressive player.

I figured my KQ would do ok against his expanded range of hands, so I raised and committed to calling if it came to that. I always consider what I would do if someone pushes behind me whether I have a read or not. I've called and folded in similiar spots before.

It's so marginal that I don't mind folding or calling so I don't burn my table image too early. If they had folded to my raise, I probably show my hand to mitigate this somewhat.

As it turned out, the table saw me insta-call his allin with KQ. The bad players probably thought "he raises with good hands". The good players probably thought "who is that moron insta-calling with K-high?" I'm happy with both of these images.

I think all the options are close. I don't think there is a right and wrong, but I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. The "steal from big stack and small stack at the same time" pattern comes up often.

btw - The villian had 55 and I won the coinflip. To misquote TJ, "to win a tournament, you have to win with KQ and you have to beat KQ."

[Bigwig]

You made the right play. I'd even raise KQ from the button at level 1. It's an easy hand to define playing against the blinds. And calling the all-in (as you know) is a must.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

He was getting low on chips and I did steal his blind last time, so I figured he wouldn't hesitate if he picked up a decent hand. On the other hand, I didn't really think he would go out of his way to push because he wasn't really standing out as an aggressive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, if this was your read then I really like limping here. If he pushes at you, you figure he likes his hand in a race, and KQ doesn't match up well against hands that typical players like in races (ie, you are not likely to be well ahead).

If he's not wild about his hand, or wants to see a flop, you will be in pretty good shape to play this hand for value, or even take it if it's up for grabs. You should be able to do this without blowing any significant chips, and if you have to fold... whatever.

Irieguy

[adanthar]

You made absolutely the right play on every decision in both hands, but what I'd work on is thinking that good players think you're dumb for calling.

Anyone who thinks you're dumb for calling as a big stack getting almost 3:1 is a player who overrates himself and you should exploit that at every opportunity.

PS: Raising to 585 sucks, but only because you're at risk for losing a lot more than that when the SB decides to flat call you with aces or AK or something.

edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
You made absolutely the right play on every decision in both hands, but what I'd work on is thinking that good players think you're dumb for calling.

Anyone who thinks you're dumb for calling as a big stack getting almost 3:1 is a player who overrates himself and you should exploit that at every opportunity.

PS: Raising to 585 sucks, but only because you're at risk for losing a lot more than that when the SB decides to flat call you with aces or AK or something.

edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he meant "good" players as in "not awful"...poker 102 players.

[TheUsher]

Since anything I would have said has already been done, let me just add a little thing I've noticed from this thread.

Since PVS is a very influential and knowledgeable poster here in addition to being the starter of this thread, there have been many other top players in the forum that have responded to his post. For anyone that hasn't been posting before, it's a neat little lesson in showing that you get back what you give. Now don't be surprised when some new posters don't get many replies on some hands.

Now that's my crazy thought for the day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with anything you said except this last part. Do you really believe that playing a small pot with position against a timid player who doesn't have a hand is a bad idea? And why do people always say "...let them see a free flop." It won't be free if he overplays a weaker king or queen, will it? It won't be free if he decides to bluff at a queen-high disconnected board.

It's funny that you had to edit a sound post to add this.

Irieguy

[adanthar]

Well, basically, I'm putting in 50 to sometimes win 75 against a guy who's gonna push a lot PF (not counting the SB, whom I really don't want in and who's now gonna feel good about his JTo). On top of that, if he checks, he will pretty much bet when he hits something *good* but check/call when he hits something mediocre that still beats overcards.

If he happens to have a K or Q *and* the flop does its 1 in 8.5 thing to bring another one, great, but he's not strong enough to bluff without one and the percentages say I win chips when I raise PF. Betting impetus etc.

I like open limping earlier on with deeper stacks behind but level 3 when the other guy has 11 BB is pushing it.

[Jason Strasser]

This thinking is very bad Ireguy.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible. You are suggesting opening for 10xbb. Think about that situation. Then think about the situation of betting 150 and then calling 585 all in.

Limping is also terrible here. If you raise you win the blinds a plenty percentage of the time. Limping sucks after level 2 IMO. The blinds are worth stealing, steal them.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

[Voltron87]

I raise to 150 and call the all in. I don't see any other way to play it.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
This thinking is very bad Ireguy.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't a suggestion on what to do, it was a demonstration of why I don't like the raise against somebody who's likey to push.

[ QUOTE ]

Limping is also terrible here. If you raise you win the blinds a plenty percentage of the time. Limping sucks after level 2 IMO. The blinds are worth stealing, steal them.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's what this all boils down to: how likely is the BB to push at you with a wide range. My impression from the OP was that it was HIGHLY likely. So I don't like the raise. Then, when PVS explained that he still didn't think a push with a wide range was likely, I'd prefer a limp as long as a push was at least somewhat more likely than normal from this type of player.

I'm surprised to hear you say that 75 chips are worth stealing with a raise of 150 or more when you plan to call a push... I disagree wholeheartedly with that. This thinking is very bad Strassa.

Irieguy

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise to 150 and call the all in. I don't see any other way to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard this from several others already.

What I need to know from you: is this gangster or not?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

What I need to know from you: is this gangster or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to direct this question to Dalibaby....he's the authority on all things ghetto...

I heard he once got in a mean street fight with a toy basket, /images/graemlins/blush.gif....this may be heresay though... /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav
Who may be from Oakland but is not nearly as street as Dalibaby..... /images/graemlins/frown.gif....

[Jason Strasser]

So if he's pushing a wide range of hands, you want to limp then fold? You wont take KQ against a random hand for a small chunk of your stack? If he is more selective than random, then you'll steal the blinds a percent of the time and race the rest.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised to hear you say that 75 chips are worth stealing with a raise of 150 or more when you plan to call a push...

[/ QUOTE ]

You would agree with me (I really hope) that if the opponents in the blinds are anywhere near normal that raising is always correct. If the bb is going nuts and will put it in with any two, then you'll also agree with me that raising and calling the all in is correct? And if he's somewhere in between, wont raising and calling still be correct?

Can we also see that if he is extremely aggro and it is highly likely that he pushes, limping with the plan to fold is terrible? Expecially because even if you do see the flop you're only flopping a k or q 1/3 or so of the time?

You have a 0 EV choice, folding. A very borderline EV choice of calling (it might actually be negative), and a clearly positive EV choice in whatever mode the BB is in of raising.

I still think this is a no brainer.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here's something to think about Strassa...

There are situations, even in a SNG, where a play that is difficult to exploit will still have an even better alternative.

Everybody knows that aggressive late position play and blind pressure is a winning tactic... and the later in a SNG you are, the better the tactic is.

BUT, there are many situations against many players where seeing a flop with position can be more profitable than blind stealing. This is an example in my opinion. The SB has a lot of chips, and the BB is getting a bit desperate and tired of the whole deal. There is a big range of hands with which they would be willing to take a flop against you, and KQ plays well in unraised pots with position (if you are a good post flop player.) You can still steal the blinds on the turn if you want to. But you can also extract extra chips from a whole host of possible postflop developments because of the chip situation. The SB is going to trap with any type of good hand because he knows that one of you is likely to take a stab at this. That makes it easy to play against him for value if he leads out. The BB will certainly push with second pair, or a matching pair with you and worse kicker. That could be cool.

So, my point isn't that you should limp. But I'm sure that I should limp, and to say that playing post flop with chips, against a shortish stack and another player with chips in a No-limit structure is "absolutely horrible" demonstrates a hole in understanding about no limit holdem and what can happen after the flop.

You don't have to agree with me... but to discount my explanation altogether is to ignore an entire component of no limit play that could, at some point, come in handy... even in a SNG.

Irieguy

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here's something to think about Strassa...

There are situations, even in a SNG, where a play that is difficult to exploit will still have an even better alternative.

Everybody knows that aggressive late position play and blind pressure is a winning tactic... and the later in a SNG you are, the better the tactic is.

BUT, there are many situations against many players where seeing a flop with position can be more profitable than blind stealing. This is an example in my opinion. The SB has a lot of chips, and the BB is getting a bit desperate and tired of the whole deal. There is a big range of hands with which they would be willing to take a flop against you, and KQ plays well in unraised pots with position (if you are a good post flop player.) You can still steal the blinds on the turn if you want to. But you can also extract extra chips from a whole host of possible postflop developments because of the chip situation. The SB is going to trap with any type of good hand because he knows that one of you is likely to take a stab at this. That makes it easy to play against him for value if he leads out. The BB will certainly push with second pair, or a matching pair with you and worse kicker. That could be cool.

So, my point isn't that you should limp. But I'm sure that I should limp, and to say that playing post flop with chips, against a shortish stack and another player with chips in a No-limit structure is "absolutely horrible" demonstrates a hole in understanding about no limit holdem and what can happen after the flop.

You don't have to agree with me... but to discount my explanation altogether is to ignore an entire component of no limit play that could, at some point, come in handy... even in a SNG.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I said above i didnt think a limp was as "horrible" as ppl were saying...but, how do you balance the limp, and the value you can extract from it with the times sb calls and BB pushes...it seems to me this is a very common scenario and if i have SB pegged as agressive im not limping, if he got that stack with a huge hand and played tightly otherwise, i might limp.

U gotta fear the squeeze here...this is classic case of caught between ss an bs.

Or do you think at this level this isnt to be worried about as much yet?

[curtains]

I gotta be honest, I don't think the chances are so good that the BB is just going to go allin if you raise (or limp). I'd say with maybe at most 10% of hands, possibly a bit more, but not by much.

[Voltron87]

I called Dr Dre and he says KQ on the button is real gangster. He says only a little bitch folds KQ on button. He added anyone who goes allin for 10BB is also a snitch with no game.