Maybe this belongs in poker theory but i'll post it here

[Schneids]

Assertion: Position is least important in games with 5-6 people.

Basically, anyone who doubts the importance of position needs to play a lot of HU to see how important it can be. Likewise, at a tight full table, position becomes increasingly important once again due to the greater likelihood of strong hands behind you.

Therefore, it seems kind of common sense the importance of position could be graphed from HU to ten handed like a 'U,' right?

To expand further on this assertion is from another post where I showed my position stats in 6-max games and the fact I'm disregarding position a lot more than a lot of people and playing more hands UTG and UTG+1 [and probably earning more money from these two positions].

Thoughts?

[arkady]

Rory will have a heart attack.

[Chobohoya]

I disagree with the assertion. I think if you had said exactly 4 people, then I agree. This is simply because in UTG in a 6 handed game, there are 3 to act behind you. In my experience, at least, I cannot come into the pot with nearly as many hands in that spot as I do from the CO. However, CO and button are pretty well equivalent for me in 4 handed play.

[kiddo]

If u are refering to this post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2179759&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1

Then u are still vpip 30 on button and 20 vpip UTG. I play 25/15 so in a way the same.

If u are UTG with fishes behind u problem is they will never let u steal. If you got good players behind you they will 3bet more often and use their position all way, just like HU. Why should it be easier with a good guy behind u in a 6max then HU? I can think about some answers but dinners is ready /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Schneids]

Well obviously position is _important_ in any poker setting I'm just saying it matters least in a 5-6 handed game.

[Silverback]

Do you really think you are disregarding position?

To me it seems you are using it very well, gradually playing more and more hands the nearer you get to the button.

[Grisgra]

His point is that the progression for most is something like 32% down to 15% or less UTG, I think.

My stats at 5/10 looked a lot like his stats for 10/20, but given the goofy aggression and ease at which people 3-bet you at 10/20, I've gone to respecting position at 10/20 6-max a lot more than I did at 5/10. Another reason I'm tightening up in the SB -- at 5/10 my VP$IP was 42% or so, at 10/20, it's lower.

But I also hope that as I figure the game out I'll be able to respect position less, so to speak /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
To expand further on this assertion is from another post where I showed my position stats in 6-max games and the fact I'm disregarding position a lot more than a lot of people and playing more hands UTG and UTG+1 [and probably earning more money from these two positions].

[/ QUOTE ]

there's a reason you are open-raising as opposed to open-limping, right? A raise 3 or 2 seats off the button buys position a lot of the time, doesn't it?

I was thinking you could graph the ev of getting coldcalled versus not getting coldcalled when opening utg or utg+1, but the fact is the trash people coldcall with (along with what is often correpsondingly poor postflop skills) puts most at such a great disadvantage that it overwhelms their positonal advantage.

put another way, positional disadvatages aren't that imposing when playing against big time chumps.

That doesn't mean your advantage when in position isn't great, just that the advantages that come from position are easily mitgated or overwhelmed by bad play.

[Victor]

nate has a post where he says to shoot from the HIP. here he rates in order:
1. High card
2. Initiative
3. Position

So your assertion is not as outlandish or even novel as it may seem to many 2ers. I recently posted my stats and many posters were appalled that i often openraise qj, q10, 10j, and 22-55. i dont always do this but there are many tables where such boldfaced aggression is very profitable.

my stats in the early positions showed that this was indeed profitable (although i dont have anything to compare it to.) another benefit is the shania effect which cannot be understated.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
there's a reason you are open-raising as opposed to open-limping, right? A raise 3 or 2 seats off the button buys position a lot of the time, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that's what he's getting at. in 6-max, you can often buy the button from anywhere. in HU, you either have position or you don't. in a full game, an EP raise isn't likely to buy the button since you have to dodge so many random hands.

perhaps the chart should be what % of hands you VPIP in and have the button.

e.g. in HU.. it might be near 50% (well, depends on the match).. in 6-max, it may be over 50% if you often buy the button. in full, it would be less than 50%.

[J.R.]

If that's the case, isn't it more *preflop* position matters less from MP and more when in EP and the blinds (disadvatage) or from LP (advantage).

So while you have no EP (positional disadvantage) in 5-6 handed games, you also have the CO and button (positional advantage) and the blinds (positional disadvatage) more often, so 4 out of the 6 seats are position sensitive in a 6 handed game (4 out of 5 in 5 handed game); whereas in a full game the 2 EPs, the 2 LPs and the blinds are position sensitive, while the four MPs are not, meaning 6 out of 10 seats in a full game are position sentive. This assumes MP accounts for 4 seats, maybe it should be 3 (adding an extra EP seat) or even 2 with the advent of the hijack.



There is also the notion that postflop decisions are more important than preflop decisions in limit (ie its hard to make a big mistake calling preflop with even the worst of hands) and position matters more postflop when headsup and 3 handed as opposed to multiway.

If true, then a game that produces more shorthanded and headsup pots *postflop* is a more positional game?

just thinking out loud through typing

[Jack Bauer]

maybe position is least important in 5-6 games in general, but in the laggro 6-max games where people are 3-betting you very lightly, I think it becomes more important than in a full 20/40 B&M game that plays tight and passive, where you can easily check-fold AJ when you're 3-bet and the flop comes 9 high (as opposed to thinking "oh crap this guy could have something stupid like 87s but my effective odds suck and I have A high")

I think it's hard to isolate the importance of position to shorthandedness because there are so many other critical factors

huggles

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
nate has a post where he says to shoot from the HIP. here he rates in order:
1. High card
2. Initiative
3. Position

[/ QUOTE ]
link?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
nate has a post where he says to shoot from the HIP. here he rates in order:
1. High card
2. Initiative
3. Position


[/ QUOTE ]

I recall that post, but I don't think they were intended to be ranked in order.

I'm also not sure if I agree with Schneids, though I will need some more caffeine to think about it properly.

[Jeff W]

Soup or man? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1019761&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[Victor]

hip post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1019761&For um=f8&Words=hip&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1019346 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4664&daterange=1&n ewerval=1&newertype=&olderval=1&oldertype=w&bodypr ev=#Post1019761)

guess he doesnt rank them in order

[Rockfish]

[ QUOTE ]
another benefit is the shania effect which cannot be understated.

[/ QUOTE ]

There it is again. I did a fair amount of searching and I gather that this is something akin to metagame strategy or "image play" if you will. Am I correct?

What is the origin of this term if you don't mind?

[___1___]

[ QUOTE ]
To expand further on this assertion is from another post where I showed my position stats in 6-max games and the fact I'm disregarding position a lot more than a lot of people and playing more hands UTG and UTG+1 [and probably earning more money from these two positions].

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what's going on (i.e. why YOUR winrate is higher using a 30/20 than 22/15)...

1) You play better than most postflop allowing you to play(UTG, for example) T9s, QJo, A4s, 55, 66 at breakeven or slightly +EV (or slightly -EV).

2) Playing (raising) more hands creates more of a LAG/maniacal image which, in turn, will garner you less respect and give you more action when you do have a good hand.

I don't think it's discounting position at all. Basically, the better you play postflop----->the more hands will be neutral EV----->you can play more hands----->you create a looser(and more aggressive)image---->the more aggregate action you receive when you do have a hand----->you win more. From my experience, I believe it's as simple as that.

Of course, a tighter style can give you a similar result, but I believe the BB/100 "ceiling" is higher as your VPIP approaches 30 (for lack of a better number).

Disclaimer - All this is predicated on the superior postflop play which few possess.

___1___

Edit: Just extrapolating on the Shania concept...

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]


Disclaimer - All this is predicated on the superior postflop play which few possess.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly right. In "Psychology of Poker" Al Schoomaker makes reference to the habit of some poker writers (I think he uses Brunson), to dispense advice that may be counterproduyctive to the good, but not great player. Befcause they possess qualities/abilities that most people simply don't have. He equated it to a basketball coach trying to teach a kid to play basketball just like Michael Jordan.

I think that is what happens to posters here sometimes. We have such a high concentration of top level players. However, some of the advice is predicated on abilities that many/most good players don't have.

[J.R.]

Think about Shania (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=533592&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)

[rory]

In the short games, you are already in position most of the time. 5 handed, every seat that isn't the blinds is in good position, you are either the button, the CO or the HJ. Not bad. 4 handed it is even better, because you are either the CO or the button or the blinds. Perfect.

6 handed, UTG is the only position where you are badly out of position. So what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure that position is any less important, it just doesn't come up as much since you are in position more often.

In a 10 handed game you are in the out-of-position seats when not in the blinds 5/8 of the time. In a 6 max game you are in the out-of-position seats when not in the blinds 1/4 of the time.

In a HU game you are out-of-position 1/2 of the time.

I don't know if this supports the idea that position is less important or what.

If you are good about sticking tight players to your left, you can give yourself good position in a 6-max game almost all of the time. That would be heaven. Two loose players on your right with 3 tight players on your left. What a setup. The loosies limp and you can isolate raise from the button because the blinds are tight. You can isolate raise UTG to play the loose blinds. Awesome. I'm rambling.

[Chobohoya]

Rory, does that mean my first response to this thread wasn't retarded? I was wondering if it was that, or maybe everyone put me on ignore or something.

To reiterate, I think that position would be least important in a 4handed game.

[Rockfish]

In all seriousness, that was f*cking awesome!

I appreciate the link as that explains a lot. I'm strange enough to appreciate the angle of that post.

Must work on my Shania.

[rory]

Most likely me agreeing with you means that yes, your first post was retarded.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
In the short games, you are already in position most of the time. 5 handed, every seat that isn't the blinds is in good position, you are either the button, the CO or the HJ. Not bad. 4 handed it is even better, because you are either the CO or the button or the blinds. Perfect.

6 handed, UTG is the only position where you are badly out of position. So what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure that position is any less important, it just doesn't come up as much since you are in position more often.

In a 10 handed game you are in the out-of-position seats when not in the blinds 5/8 of the time. In a 6 max game you are in the out-of-position seats when not in the blinds 1/4 of the time.

In a HU game you are out-of-position 1/2 of the time.

I don't know if this supports the idea that position is less important or what.

If you are good about sticking tight players to your left, you can give yourself good position in a 6-max game almost all of the time. That would be heaven. Two loose players on your right with 3 tight players on your left. What a setup. The loosies limp and you can isolate raise from the button because the blinds are tight. You can isolate raise UTG to play the loose blinds. Awesome. I'm rambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need some time alone /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[the shadow]

Take a look at Position, position, position (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=201 9379&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limi t=25&Main=2019379&Search=true&where=&Name=30065&da terange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post2019379) and Is having good position ever bad? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=203 0814&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limi t=25&Main=2030814&Search=true&where=&Name=30065&da terange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post2030814).

The Shadow