imported_Reaction
04-19-2005, 11:45 AM
Stumbled across this while doing an achieve search. It was originally posted in the SS forum. There are many respected names in this thread. The original post and discussion following makes an excellent read.
Orignal post is here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=321233&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)
or
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=321233&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1
And now for the good stuff(hope the copy & paste is readable).
Clarkmeister
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 05:35 PM
5 things LL players should "unlearn"
5 things that LL players would be better off "unlearning". This doesn't mean that some of these things aren't important skills or concepts to incorporate into your game at some point. They are. But they rarely have a place in LL games against the animals, and they are generally misapplied at the table. Some portrayals may be slight oversimplifications, but I think the general ideas are legitimate.
1. Raising for a free card.
The most overused play in LL holdem. Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card, and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways. In addition, you will frequently cost yourself a raise on the turn or river when you hit. Unless you are in a situation where you have a ton of opponents and are "capping for value", its more often going to be correct (especially with small flush draws) to eschew the free card raise and play it straight up.
2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
I see more LL players trying to checkraise semibluff on the turn and it never, ever works. It doesn?t even work well in tougher mid limit games anymore unless you really set it up well on earlier rounds, and no new draws appear on the turn. As soon as that flush draw appears on the turn though, no middle limit player is folding because its always in their mind. And not only does it cost you that extra bet on the turn, it sometimes costs you TWO extra bets on the turn as you get 3-bet. Plus, even when you don't get 3-bet, its rare that someone doesn't throw that last desperation bluff into the pot on the river. And they almost always get called. By far the biggest chip burner of otherwise winning players.
3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
Another mistake I see lots of people make is limping in with a hand like 89s, then calling 2 more cold back to them preflop, or coldcalling 2 on the button with like a raiser and one or 2 callers. These hands are chip burners and extremely difficult to play well postflop. Its easy to say "I flop a big draw or I get out" but its rarely, if ever that simple. Too many flops will come something like T83 and suddenly you can?t get out, and may have to pay quite a bit to either see the river, or find out that you are no good.
4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
Hands like AA-JJ continue to gain EV (and variance) as you add people into the pot. Hands like AK and AQ also gain value, though its not as pronounced. The idea that one would rather have 78s vs 7 opponents than AK is a fallacious one. You may need to change some postflop strategies in this situation with your AKo, but it is still a significantly higher EV hand than the 87s.
5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
All holdem literature admonishes new players to beware of kicker problems. For good reason. Its good to keep people away from the Ax hands that most new players love. But once you do see the flop with your big-little combo (Axs, or something like Kx from the BB), the pots are so big in these LL games that unless the Rock of Gibralter starts raising, you must proceed as if your top pair is the boss and play accordingly. Too many people will play middle pair aggressively, , jam their flush draws, even raise with bottom pair and a gutshot, and too many fish will chase even the longest of shots. Punish them and see what happens on the river when the smoke clears. This doesn?t mean to blindly play til the "bitter end", but it does mean that you shouldn?t be so ready to assume that you aren?t in the lead. I get the impression that many new players would rather flop bottom pair than top pair/no kicker, and that?s simply wrong.
DrSavage
(addict)
08/21/03 05:56 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Very good post.
100% agree with everything except maybe no 1. Lots of people are passive and have a strong check-to-the-raiza tendency. I wouldn't advise this play at 0.5-1 tables and 1-2 tables, but it's more or less fine at 2-4 and 3-6. Just be selective who do you use it against.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:05 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
2-5 all good.
Quote:
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1. Raising for a free card.
...and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways...
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Granted I pick my spots and practice the rest of your rule #1. But this peice is Bull in my games. I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful.
Other than that great post, Clark.
WalleyeJason
(enthusiast)
08/21/03 06:06 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Great post!
Another hand that I used to play a lot until I realized it was a chip burner was Axs. I was allways pissed off because I didnt flop my flush draw, and when I caught an A my kicker went by the wayside.
WJ
Clarkmeister
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:08 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
"I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. "
"The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful. "
Which is it?
Dynasty
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:11 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I also disagree with #1. Specifically, I disagree with:
Quote:
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Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card
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Assuming your raising with a flush draw or open-ended straight draw, it is going to be correct to take the free card unless your turn bet is getting called by four or more players.
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More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways
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When I raise for free cards, it is uncommon for me to get 3-bet or bet into on the turn. I get checked to at least 2/3 of the time.
Ed Miller
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:12 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I think this is great advice as usual. I especially like your point #5... in fact, I just finished an article about playing top pair and I pointed this very thing out. I see constantly in posts on this forum, "I played A4s for two bets on the button because I'm going to fold if an Ace flops" as if folding potentially the best hand is what turns this play into a winner.
I also disagree a bit with #1. I think there is a lot of value (as I know you do as well) to learning to be aggressive with drawing hands, especially in late position. If the only reason you are raising is that you are hoping for a free card, then perhaps your raise is not well-conceived (e.g. you are playing a weak draw that won't be able to see the river if you miss).
Actually, what I see constantly on this forum (and in games) is people using the free card play on the flop with a marginal made hand. They want to "see a cheap showdown" so they raise the flop and check the turn. Blech... I think this play is almost never right. What they are usually doing is giving a free card, not getting one. If you really want to see a cheap showdown, raise the flop, bet the turn, and check the river. I basically never raise the flop and check the turn with a made hand.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:14 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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Granted I pick my spots and practice the rest of your rule #1. But this peice is Bull in my games. I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful.
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If they bet out on the turn whatever then you don't get a free card and Clark's point is correct.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:15 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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Which is it?
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Yokies, you're right. You know what it is, I get the free card when I play live, and thus have a vivid memory of such actions.
Now that I think about it, online, I don't the get free card as often, and when the flush hits they still bet out online, whereas live they do not.
This may have something to do with image, I assume.
Well, now you've got me thinking about adjustments, thanks.
J.R.
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:18 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I agree with everything but the idea that you can't get free cards in #1. Most LL holdem games are full of weak, calling station types. Your point #5 acknowledges this to some degree. Many opponents shut down when raised, even with the 2-flush on board and a late poisiton bet. Furthermore, many LL players check when the 3 flush comes on the turn, regardless of whether there was a raise on the flop or not, so I don't think you lose bets by making this raise. Nonetheless, it is overused and often misapplied. Flame away.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:21 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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1. Raising for a free card.
The most overused play in LL holdem. Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card, and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways. In addition, you will frequently cost yourself a raise on the turn or river when you hit. Unless you are in a situation where you have a ton of opponents and are "capping for value", its more often going to be correct (especially with small flush draws) to eschew the free card raise and play it straight up.
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This point depends completely on individual opponents. Many I have encountered will not bet or raise at all for the rest of this hand without the nuts after I've raised. Generally the typical opponent will give you a free card if he has a decent but not great hand. The worst players will just raise no matter what if they've made as little as 2nd pair and the best will often see what you're doing and come back over the top (especially if you've made the play before). So IMO raising for a free card works a treat against all but the best and worst players. I agree completely with the rest, all great.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:22 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Well I rethought and I can remember most of my hands live, I get the free card. Whereas, online I don't get it as often. As I wrote the statements, each of them came from separtate media.
This has me interested in how image takes such a roll in raising for the free card.
Vehn
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:28 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Sounds good to me.
I've always wonder why S&M et al so highly rate the "free card" play.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:29 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Image means a lot more live. Most online weak calling stations don't pay any attention to what others do, partly because players change so often and also because they just don't think. When playing live these things mean more because they're much more likely to remember things that have happened in front of them.
Vehn
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:34 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I would say the two main things that LL players who are "trying to play well" have problems with are a) not making proper value bets and b) much too many crying calls.
oddjob
(enthusiast)
08/21/03 07:07 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
i've found that the most over-used play is the poorly used check-raise with a monster.
example. Fancy young lad who has just finished reading the latest greatest poker book. he's first to act and flops a monster in a 6 or 7 handed pot, he checks, it gets checked to a lp player who bets. fancy lad of course raises. and drives out all the players who would probably call 1 bet. kudos to him he did what he wanted. he made a fancy play. and he's probably proud of himself of driving out all those players who were drawing quite thin to his monster. why these guys want all those players out, is beyond me.
a note about #1 from my perspective
the $2-5 spread limit i play, is usually a $5 bet post flop on all rounds. raising for a free card is worthless, as you are paying the same if you just called. not to mention if they bet into you on the turn.
it seems a lot more people are using this play. the raise for the free card on the turn. so i've been really working on defending against this buy 3-betting, or betting into them on the turn.
another overused play i've noticed lately is reraise preflop to get it heads-up. which is fine, if they were doing it with hands that warranted it. i got 3-bet by a new player last night that had pocket 5's. he got it heads up and i was good with big slick. he just said, "i was just trying to get it heads up"
nice job on the list
Homer
(Carpal Tunnel)
08/21/03 07:30 PM
Some thoughts
Nice post. I'm curious as to which of these five things everyone thinks is the hardest to unlearn. In my opinion, from easiest to hardest (to unlearn):
3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
One reading of HPFAP or WLLHE should rid you of this habit.
2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
One reading of WLLHE AND a couple of hours in an average Party 2-4 or 3-6 game should get the job done. Even though we read in starter books that moves like this won't work in low-limit games, we're tempted to try them out anyway because it's cool and makes you feel like a badass poker player. Plus, it's easy for beginners to get their hands on HPFAP and misinterpret things. Only after reading about it AND ignoring the advice given do we learn that we probably shouldn't ignore the advice if we'd like to hang onto our bankroll.
4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
I think this is good advice for beginners to stay away from trouble hands like KTo, QJo, etc. But then we play for a while and start to incorrectly apply this advice to hands like AK/AQ as well. I think part of it is that we don't like the idea of raising preflop and check-folding the flop when we miss. "If I'm going to raise preflop and then check-fold the flop, why the hell don't I just limp preflop?" It takes a while to understand that it can be correct to raise for value preflop, then to fold on the flop when we miss. It's very easy to become weak-tight and wait to hit your hand before you start to bet/raise. Same thing with pumping mega-draws -- it's real easy to sit back and think "I'll just call and bet if I make my hand. If I don't get there I've saved a bet."
5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
Again, this is a combination of what we are taught in the books and a natural tendency to play weak-tight. When met with confrontation many of us just want to get out of the way, and we feel justified in doing so since "the book" told us it was okay. It takes some experience to learn that:
- People bet and raise with crap
- We don't have to win EVERY time, just often enough that playing on has a greater EV than does folding
- Hand reading is important in determining the likelihood that you have the best hand (taking into account player knowledge, player's actions during the hand, texture of the board, etc)
I've been playing for around 1.5 years now, and I've only recently started to develop a good feel for when I should play on with top-pair, no kicker.
1. Raising for a free card.
I think this is the hardest habit to kick of the five. I used to raise for a free card like crazy, no matter whether it actually had a chance to work (often I would get three-bet then would try to cap for a free card, only to be bet into again on the turn), or whether the situation called for it or not (I would do so from the BB with 3c2c when the SB bet into me on a AcKcQd flop with 8 players left to act behind me). Often, I would raise the flop with a weak made hand, check behind on the turn, and call a bet on the river. Most of the time the correct play was to either continue betting on the turn, or else fold on the flop. I wasn't playing tight-aggressive poker (notice the weak-tight theme going on here).
-- Homer
TimTimSalabim
(addict)
08/21/03 08:07 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Actually, it may not be so much image as social pressure. Live players have everyone staring at them, and are more likely to do socially acceptable behaviors like "check to the raiser". Online, people play much bolder, there is much more bluffing and calling with weak hands, because they don't have to worry about being embarrassed when they show down.
TimTimSalabim
(addict)
08/21/03 08:53 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I have to disagree with #5. I will fold top pair/no kicker quite readily in a very loose game. Most of the time, you are behind and likely have 3 outs. In fact, if the game is loose enough, I would rather flop bottom pair with an overcard kicker (also behind, but now I likely have 5 outs).
Al_Capone_Junior
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 09:26 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Although I think Clark's post was well thought out, and that he basically has good intentions, I also have to somewhat agree with Dynasty here. I think Clark's points are somewhat reflective of the games he typically plays in, more-so than the "typical" low limit game. I know Clark's a Vegas-ite, and I know how the games are there. And basically, if you are going to play in vegas games, especially during the day, his advice is well said.
Free card raise: when the game is full of clueless, non-aggressive tourists, the free card raise has usefulness. Specifically, you are almost always getting in a value raise when you do so, because a game full of loose passive tourists will rarely reraise, yet almost always pay it off, and there's almost always enough players where you practically must raise. Against the typical daytime 6-12 Mirage or 10-20 crowd tho, it's a futile maneuver. They probably will reraise, and then will also bet the turn. Only clueless tourists fall for the free card ploy, so you should know your players before you try it. Yet the wisdom of Clark's words rings true when you try to play in the generally tougher games typical of Vegas during the day.
I should throw in a word of agreement with Clark's sentiments on not trying to check-raise semi-bluff the turn tho. It's really only a useful maneuver heads-up against a pretty darn tight player who's going to fall for it, i.e. an overly conservative rock. Against loose players, it's futile. Against tough players who are likely to see through it, it's also futile. It's a move that should RARELY be used, not constantly be used, as is seen in many cardroom around the country.
al
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 09:43 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I think check raising is a useful tool but not if you sod it up - like in your example. Obviously you need to take into account where the likely bettor will be and judge whether the check raise will achieve what you want it to, i.e with a monster hand you want the person to your right to bet so everyone calls and then calls your second bet. You're definitely right about how overplayed it can be at these LL games.
I played at a table the other day with a guy who would ALWAYS check raise his good hands. If he had a weak hand or nothing he would nearly always bet. Because of how overplayed it was it became so obvious what sort of hand he was holding that anyone who noticed this would have an overwhelming advantage over him. Fortunately noone really paid much attention to this and he normally got away with being so one tracked.
Maybe #6 should be: Never assume your opponents think about what you are holding.
Al_Capone_Junior
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 09:54 PM
Re: Some thoughts
"I've been playing for around 1.5 years now..."
DAMN Homer, you got more posts than Clark, a carpal tunnel maniac, and only 1.5 years? I've been playing for WAY longer than you and I'm just an old hand....
"I used to raise for a free card like crazy..."
We must distinguish between raising for a free card and value raising. The free card play may, or may not work. If there are sufficient players in the hand, value raising can be correct even with no chance of getting a free card. In my experience, once someone calls one bet on the flop, they rarely fold, even for two more, so if you get reraised, you just cap for value after everyone just calls anyway. This can be the best play even if you know you'll get bet into on the turn. If you're trying for the free card, you must be a bit more selective as to who you try it against. However, you can sometimes achieve both objectives with one play.
"I think this is good advice for beginners to stay away from trouble hands like KTo, QJo, etc. But then we play for a while and start to incorrectly apply this advice to hands like AK/AQ as well."
KTo is basically crapola. AKo is not. Offsuit high cards do differ greatly in their value, and in how they should be played. (this might be somewhat off topic, but what the heh...) I know Clark's not a big fan of NOT raising with AK or AQ offsuit, and for many situations, his views are correct. Those times I disagree with him are for very specific (and actually fairly rare) situations, when post flop counts for more than pre-flop. I'll not go into it here, but for beginners, the value pre-flop of offsuit high cards can be a confusing subject.
Ahhhh... Top pair, no kicker. A thorny subject, fer sure. The only "general rule" I use is that if it is bet and raised before it gets to me, I give more thought to folding than if it's just one bet or no bets. Unfortunately, top pair, no kicker is almost always a BB problem, which means my general rule is fairly useless. Not sure why I'm bringing this up, but it's an interesting thread.
Suited connectors for multiple bets preflop... There are very few situations where you SHOULD do this. So Clark is basically right. The most obvious situation where you should is when you only have to call one more bet from the BB in a multiway pot. Beyond that, you're stretching it....
al
TobDog
(enthusiast)
08/22/03 12:33 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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I've always wonder why S&M et al so highly rate the "free card" play.
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How many zeros do you think they have added to their bankroll bacause they have used the free card play correctly and gotten a cheap card or when they hit their hand mad ethe flop bet a BB instead of a SB?
anatta
(addict)
08/22/03 05:31 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I raise the flop on a draw in multi-way pots for value and for the free card. You have a good point that if the flush card comes, then you will get checked to on the turn. However, players will be more willing to call your turn bet when they are drawing slim if you pumped the pot on the flop. Guys around here will call with a gutshot on a flush board if its big enough. Also a lot of players are "one timers" and will take one off (and 2 with your raise) on the flop with anything, but fold the turn regardless. So I like to get them to pay while they are interested and I have the best of it. The free card is a nice addition. I do try to avoid going to war on the flop multi-way with baby flush draws.
oddjob
(enthusiast)
08/22/03 12:13 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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I think check raising is a useful tool but not if you sod it up - like in your example. Obviously you need to take into account where the likely bettor will be and judge whether the check raise will achieve what you want it to, i.e with a monster hand you want the person to your right to bet so everyone calls and then calls your second bet. You're definitely right about how overplayed it can be at these LL games.
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for a checkraise to be succesful in this case, you want the person to your left to bet.
Louie Landale
(veteran)
08/22/03 02:05 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
[1] Raising for the free card is like playing $10 for a free lunch.
[2] The problem here is that the target needs to be someone who will lay down a pair for the raise.
[4] And I thought I was the only one who believed that. These big cards to GREAT against lots of LOOSE players; but AQ does poorly against a lot of TIGHT players because [1] they are more likely to make something, and [2] the ones that don't are more likely to have the cards you need to make a pair.
[6] Manipulating the size of the pot.
[7] Figuring out what you want to do, like raising, then looking for any old excuse to do it.
[8] Failing to bet a questionable hand against a bunch of players.
[9] Getting called on the turn then checking the river for no particular reason.
[10] Under-estimating the ability for loose-players to make loose calls.
[11] Figuring "Tricky" is the routine way to play a hand.
- Louie
ChipWrecked
(addict)
08/24/03 12:12 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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3. "...calling 2 more cold back to them preflop, or coldcalling 2 on the button with like a raiser and one or 2 callers.
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Isn't the number of opponents the key criterion here? I'll admit that I don't have a problem with this hand being capped pre-flop, if I have at least 4 opponents.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/24/03 12:32 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
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for a checkraise to be succesful in this case, you want the person to your left to bet.
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Yes obviously. Meant to say you want to be to the right of the probably bettor.
ResidentParanoid
(addict)
08/25/03 09:40 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
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1. Raising for a free card.
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Of the 5 items, I think I make more money from this one than any other against half-decent players. I bet into a large field on the flop from EP with a made hand, player on the button raises for the free card, I 3 bet from early position, a couple of callers come along. I bet into the field again on the turn. Even when free-card-dude 4-bets the flop, he often doesn't have a hand. I think Homer made similar comments below.
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2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
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After re-discovering the turn check-raise of late, I've found myself doing this a couple of times. Yuk.
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3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
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Yes, I have seen a fair amount of this, and it is a serious leak. Not me, though.
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4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
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Although I see a lot of discussion of this, I'm not sure it translates into anything at the tables. When folks will play 24s multiway , why wouldn't they be in there with KJ?
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5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
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Against loose fishy fields, I still think most A- and K- pair hands with no kicker are going to be dead. But not always. Against an aggressive player, mostly heads-up, I'm sometimes willing to go to war.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
11/19/03 08:45 AM
*BUMP* N/M
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
02/01/05 05:47 PM
bump
.
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Clarkmeister
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 05:35 PM
5 things LL players should "unlearn"
5 things that LL players would be better off "unlearning". This doesn't mean that some of these things aren't important skills or concepts to incorporate into your game at some point. They are. But they rarely have a place in LL games against the animals, and they are generally misapplied at the table. Some portrayals may be slight oversimplifications, but I think the general ideas are legitimate.
1. Raising for a free card.
The most overused play in LL holdem. Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card, and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways. In addition, you will frequently cost yourself a raise on the turn or river when you hit. Unless you are in a situation where you have a ton of opponents and are "capping for value", its more often going to be correct (especially with small flush draws) to eschew the free card raise and play it straight up.
2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
I see more LL players trying to checkraise semibluff on the turn and it never, ever works. It doesn?t even work well in tougher mid limit games anymore unless you really set it up well on earlier rounds, and no new draws appear on the turn. As soon as that flush draw appears on the turn though, no middle limit player is folding because its always in their mind. And not only does it cost you that extra bet on the turn, it sometimes costs you TWO extra bets on the turn as you get 3-bet. Plus, even when you don't get 3-bet, its rare that someone doesn't throw that last desperation bluff into the pot on the river. And they almost always get called. By far the biggest chip burner of otherwise winning players.
3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
Another mistake I see lots of people make is limping in with a hand like 89s, then calling 2 more cold back to them preflop, or coldcalling 2 on the button with like a raiser and one or 2 callers. These hands are chip burners and extremely difficult to play well postflop. Its easy to say "I flop a big draw or I get out" but its rarely, if ever that simple. Too many flops will come something like T83 and suddenly you can?t get out, and may have to pay quite a bit to either see the river, or find out that you are no good.
4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
Hands like AA-JJ continue to gain EV (and variance) as you add people into the pot. Hands like AK and AQ also gain value, though its not as pronounced. The idea that one would rather have 78s vs 7 opponents than AK is a fallacious one. You may need to change some postflop strategies in this situation with your AKo, but it is still a significantly higher EV hand than the 87s.
5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
All holdem literature admonishes new players to beware of kicker problems. For good reason. Its good to keep people away from the Ax hands that most new players love. But once you do see the flop with your big-little combo (Axs, or something like Kx from the BB), the pots are so big in these LL games that unless the Rock of Gibralter starts raising, you must proceed as if your top pair is the boss and play accordingly. Too many people will play middle pair aggressively, , jam their flush draws, even raise with bottom pair and a gutshot, and too many fish will chase even the longest of shots. Punish them and see what happens on the river when the smoke clears. This doesn?t mean to blindly play til the "bitter end", but it does mean that you shouldn?t be so ready to assume that you aren?t in the lead. I get the impression that many new players would rather flop bottom pair than top pair/no kicker, and that?s simply wrong.
DrSavage
(addict)
08/21/03 05:56 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Very good post.
100% agree with everything except maybe no 1. Lots of people are passive and have a strong check-to-the-raiza tendency. I wouldn't advise this play at 0.5-1 tables and 1-2 tables, but it's more or less fine at 2-4 and 3-6. Just be selective who do you use it against.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:05 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
2-5 all good.
Quote:
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1. Raising for a free card.
...and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways...
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Granted I pick my spots and practice the rest of your rule #1. But this peice is Bull in my games. I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful.
Other than that great post, Clark.
WalleyeJason
(enthusiast)
08/21/03 06:06 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Great post!
Another hand that I used to play a lot until I realized it was a chip burner was Axs. I was allways pissed off because I didnt flop my flush draw, and when I caught an A my kicker went by the wayside.
WJ
Clarkmeister
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:08 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
"I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. "
"The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful. "
Which is it?
Dynasty
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:11 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I also disagree with #1. Specifically, I disagree with:
Quote:
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Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card
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Assuming your raising with a flush draw or open-ended straight draw, it is going to be correct to take the free card unless your turn bet is getting called by four or more players.
Quote:
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More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways
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When I raise for free cards, it is uncommon for me to get 3-bet or bet into on the turn. I get checked to at least 2/3 of the time.
Ed Miller
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:12 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I think this is great advice as usual. I especially like your point #5... in fact, I just finished an article about playing top pair and I pointed this very thing out. I see constantly in posts on this forum, "I played A4s for two bets on the button because I'm going to fold if an Ace flops" as if folding potentially the best hand is what turns this play into a winner.
I also disagree a bit with #1. I think there is a lot of value (as I know you do as well) to learning to be aggressive with drawing hands, especially in late position. If the only reason you are raising is that you are hoping for a free card, then perhaps your raise is not well-conceived (e.g. you are playing a weak draw that won't be able to see the river if you miss).
Actually, what I see constantly on this forum (and in games) is people using the free card play on the flop with a marginal made hand. They want to "see a cheap showdown" so they raise the flop and check the turn. Blech... I think this play is almost never right. What they are usually doing is giving a free card, not getting one. If you really want to see a cheap showdown, raise the flop, bet the turn, and check the river. I basically never raise the flop and check the turn with a made hand.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:14 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Granted I pick my spots and practice the rest of your rule #1. But this peice is Bull in my games. I get the free card all the time. I'm sure it's 80% or better. The fools bet out on the turn weather the flush hits or not, it's beautiful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they bet out on the turn whatever then you don't get a free card and Clark's point is correct.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:15 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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Which is it?
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Yokies, you're right. You know what it is, I get the free card when I play live, and thus have a vivid memory of such actions.
Now that I think about it, online, I don't the get free card as often, and when the flush hits they still bet out online, whereas live they do not.
This may have something to do with image, I assume.
Well, now you've got me thinking about adjustments, thanks.
J.R.
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:18 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I agree with everything but the idea that you can't get free cards in #1. Most LL holdem games are full of weak, calling station types. Your point #5 acknowledges this to some degree. Many opponents shut down when raised, even with the 2-flush on board and a late poisiton bet. Furthermore, many LL players check when the 3 flush comes on the turn, regardless of whether there was a raise on the flop or not, so I don't think you lose bets by making this raise. Nonetheless, it is overused and often misapplied. Flame away.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:21 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
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1. Raising for a free card.
The most overused play in LL holdem. Its rarely going to be correct to take the free card, and you?ll rarely get it anyways. More often you will get 3-bet or, if no flush card comes, you will get bet into on the turn anyways. In addition, you will frequently cost yourself a raise on the turn or river when you hit. Unless you are in a situation where you have a ton of opponents and are "capping for value", its more often going to be correct (especially with small flush draws) to eschew the free card raise and play it straight up.
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This point depends completely on individual opponents. Many I have encountered will not bet or raise at all for the rest of this hand without the nuts after I've raised. Generally the typical opponent will give you a free card if he has a decent but not great hand. The worst players will just raise no matter what if they've made as little as 2nd pair and the best will often see what you're doing and come back over the top (especially if you've made the play before). So IMO raising for a free card works a treat against all but the best and worst players. I agree completely with the rest, all great.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:22 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Well I rethought and I can remember most of my hands live, I get the free card. Whereas, online I don't get it as often. As I wrote the statements, each of them came from separtate media.
This has me interested in how image takes such a roll in raising for the free card.
Vehn
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:28 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Sounds good to me.
I've always wonder why S&M et al so highly rate the "free card" play.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 06:29 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Image means a lot more live. Most online weak calling stations don't pay any attention to what others do, partly because players change so often and also because they just don't think. When playing live these things mean more because they're much more likely to remember things that have happened in front of them.
Vehn
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 06:34 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I would say the two main things that LL players who are "trying to play well" have problems with are a) not making proper value bets and b) much too many crying calls.
oddjob
(enthusiast)
08/21/03 07:07 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
i've found that the most over-used play is the poorly used check-raise with a monster.
example. Fancy young lad who has just finished reading the latest greatest poker book. he's first to act and flops a monster in a 6 or 7 handed pot, he checks, it gets checked to a lp player who bets. fancy lad of course raises. and drives out all the players who would probably call 1 bet. kudos to him he did what he wanted. he made a fancy play. and he's probably proud of himself of driving out all those players who were drawing quite thin to his monster. why these guys want all those players out, is beyond me.
a note about #1 from my perspective
the $2-5 spread limit i play, is usually a $5 bet post flop on all rounds. raising for a free card is worthless, as you are paying the same if you just called. not to mention if they bet into you on the turn.
it seems a lot more people are using this play. the raise for the free card on the turn. so i've been really working on defending against this buy 3-betting, or betting into them on the turn.
another overused play i've noticed lately is reraise preflop to get it heads-up. which is fine, if they were doing it with hands that warranted it. i got 3-bet by a new player last night that had pocket 5's. he got it heads up and i was good with big slick. he just said, "i was just trying to get it heads up"
nice job on the list
Homer
(Carpal Tunnel)
08/21/03 07:30 PM
Some thoughts
Nice post. I'm curious as to which of these five things everyone thinks is the hardest to unlearn. In my opinion, from easiest to hardest (to unlearn):
3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
One reading of HPFAP or WLLHE should rid you of this habit.
2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
One reading of WLLHE AND a couple of hours in an average Party 2-4 or 3-6 game should get the job done. Even though we read in starter books that moves like this won't work in low-limit games, we're tempted to try them out anyway because it's cool and makes you feel like a badass poker player. Plus, it's easy for beginners to get their hands on HPFAP and misinterpret things. Only after reading about it AND ignoring the advice given do we learn that we probably shouldn't ignore the advice if we'd like to hang onto our bankroll.
4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
I think this is good advice for beginners to stay away from trouble hands like KTo, QJo, etc. But then we play for a while and start to incorrectly apply this advice to hands like AK/AQ as well. I think part of it is that we don't like the idea of raising preflop and check-folding the flop when we miss. "If I'm going to raise preflop and then check-fold the flop, why the hell don't I just limp preflop?" It takes a while to understand that it can be correct to raise for value preflop, then to fold on the flop when we miss. It's very easy to become weak-tight and wait to hit your hand before you start to bet/raise. Same thing with pumping mega-draws -- it's real easy to sit back and think "I'll just call and bet if I make my hand. If I don't get there I've saved a bet."
5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
Again, this is a combination of what we are taught in the books and a natural tendency to play weak-tight. When met with confrontation many of us just want to get out of the way, and we feel justified in doing so since "the book" told us it was okay. It takes some experience to learn that:
- People bet and raise with crap
- We don't have to win EVERY time, just often enough that playing on has a greater EV than does folding
- Hand reading is important in determining the likelihood that you have the best hand (taking into account player knowledge, player's actions during the hand, texture of the board, etc)
I've been playing for around 1.5 years now, and I've only recently started to develop a good feel for when I should play on with top-pair, no kicker.
1. Raising for a free card.
I think this is the hardest habit to kick of the five. I used to raise for a free card like crazy, no matter whether it actually had a chance to work (often I would get three-bet then would try to cap for a free card, only to be bet into again on the turn), or whether the situation called for it or not (I would do so from the BB with 3c2c when the SB bet into me on a AcKcQd flop with 8 players left to act behind me). Often, I would raise the flop with a weak made hand, check behind on the turn, and call a bet on the river. Most of the time the correct play was to either continue betting on the turn, or else fold on the flop. I wasn't playing tight-aggressive poker (notice the weak-tight theme going on here).
-- Homer
TimTimSalabim
(addict)
08/21/03 08:07 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Actually, it may not be so much image as social pressure. Live players have everyone staring at them, and are more likely to do socially acceptable behaviors like "check to the raiser". Online, people play much bolder, there is much more bluffing and calling with weak hands, because they don't have to worry about being embarrassed when they show down.
TimTimSalabim
(addict)
08/21/03 08:53 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I have to disagree with #5. I will fold top pair/no kicker quite readily in a very loose game. Most of the time, you are behind and likely have 3 outs. In fact, if the game is loose enough, I would rather flop bottom pair with an overcard kicker (also behind, but now I likely have 5 outs).
Al_Capone_Junior
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 09:26 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Although I think Clark's post was well thought out, and that he basically has good intentions, I also have to somewhat agree with Dynasty here. I think Clark's points are somewhat reflective of the games he typically plays in, more-so than the "typical" low limit game. I know Clark's a Vegas-ite, and I know how the games are there. And basically, if you are going to play in vegas games, especially during the day, his advice is well said.
Free card raise: when the game is full of clueless, non-aggressive tourists, the free card raise has usefulness. Specifically, you are almost always getting in a value raise when you do so, because a game full of loose passive tourists will rarely reraise, yet almost always pay it off, and there's almost always enough players where you practically must raise. Against the typical daytime 6-12 Mirage or 10-20 crowd tho, it's a futile maneuver. They probably will reraise, and then will also bet the turn. Only clueless tourists fall for the free card ploy, so you should know your players before you try it. Yet the wisdom of Clark's words rings true when you try to play in the generally tougher games typical of Vegas during the day.
I should throw in a word of agreement with Clark's sentiments on not trying to check-raise semi-bluff the turn tho. It's really only a useful maneuver heads-up against a pretty darn tight player who's going to fall for it, i.e. an overly conservative rock. Against loose players, it's futile. Against tough players who are likely to see through it, it's also futile. It's a move that should RARELY be used, not constantly be used, as is seen in many cardroom around the country.
al
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/21/03 09:43 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I think check raising is a useful tool but not if you sod it up - like in your example. Obviously you need to take into account where the likely bettor will be and judge whether the check raise will achieve what you want it to, i.e with a monster hand you want the person to your right to bet so everyone calls and then calls your second bet. You're definitely right about how overplayed it can be at these LL games.
I played at a table the other day with a guy who would ALWAYS check raise his good hands. If he had a weak hand or nothing he would nearly always bet. Because of how overplayed it was it became so obvious what sort of hand he was holding that anyone who noticed this would have an overwhelming advantage over him. Fortunately noone really paid much attention to this and he normally got away with being so one tracked.
Maybe #6 should be: Never assume your opponents think about what you are holding.
Al_Capone_Junior
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/21/03 09:54 PM
Re: Some thoughts
"I've been playing for around 1.5 years now..."
DAMN Homer, you got more posts than Clark, a carpal tunnel maniac, and only 1.5 years? I've been playing for WAY longer than you and I'm just an old hand....
"I used to raise for a free card like crazy..."
We must distinguish between raising for a free card and value raising. The free card play may, or may not work. If there are sufficient players in the hand, value raising can be correct even with no chance of getting a free card. In my experience, once someone calls one bet on the flop, they rarely fold, even for two more, so if you get reraised, you just cap for value after everyone just calls anyway. This can be the best play even if you know you'll get bet into on the turn. If you're trying for the free card, you must be a bit more selective as to who you try it against. However, you can sometimes achieve both objectives with one play.
"I think this is good advice for beginners to stay away from trouble hands like KTo, QJo, etc. But then we play for a while and start to incorrectly apply this advice to hands like AK/AQ as well."
KTo is basically crapola. AKo is not. Offsuit high cards do differ greatly in their value, and in how they should be played. (this might be somewhat off topic, but what the heh...) I know Clark's not a big fan of NOT raising with AK or AQ offsuit, and for many situations, his views are correct. Those times I disagree with him are for very specific (and actually fairly rare) situations, when post flop counts for more than pre-flop. I'll not go into it here, but for beginners, the value pre-flop of offsuit high cards can be a confusing subject.
Ahhhh... Top pair, no kicker. A thorny subject, fer sure. The only "general rule" I use is that if it is bet and raised before it gets to me, I give more thought to folding than if it's just one bet or no bets. Unfortunately, top pair, no kicker is almost always a BB problem, which means my general rule is fairly useless. Not sure why I'm bringing this up, but it's an interesting thread.
Suited connectors for multiple bets preflop... There are very few situations where you SHOULD do this. So Clark is basically right. The most obvious situation where you should is when you only have to call one more bet from the BB in a multiway pot. Beyond that, you're stretching it....
al
TobDog
(enthusiast)
08/22/03 12:33 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've always wonder why S&M et al so highly rate the "free card" play.
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How many zeros do you think they have added to their bankroll bacause they have used the free card play correctly and gotten a cheap card or when they hit their hand mad ethe flop bet a BB instead of a SB?
anatta
(addict)
08/22/03 05:31 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
I raise the flop on a draw in multi-way pots for value and for the free card. You have a good point that if the flush card comes, then you will get checked to on the turn. However, players will be more willing to call your turn bet when they are drawing slim if you pumped the pot on the flop. Guys around here will call with a gutshot on a flush board if its big enough. Also a lot of players are "one timers" and will take one off (and 2 with your raise) on the flop with anything, but fold the turn regardless. So I like to get them to pay while they are interested and I have the best of it. The free card is a nice addition. I do try to avoid going to war on the flop multi-way with baby flush draws.
oddjob
(enthusiast)
08/22/03 12:13 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think check raising is a useful tool but not if you sod it up - like in your example. Obviously you need to take into account where the likely bettor will be and judge whether the check raise will achieve what you want it to, i.e with a monster hand you want the person to your right to bet so everyone calls and then calls your second bet. You're definitely right about how overplayed it can be at these LL games.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for a checkraise to be succesful in this case, you want the person to your left to bet.
Louie Landale
(veteran)
08/22/03 02:05 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
[1] Raising for the free card is like playing $10 for a free lunch.
[2] The problem here is that the target needs to be someone who will lay down a pair for the raise.
[4] And I thought I was the only one who believed that. These big cards to GREAT against lots of LOOSE players; but AQ does poorly against a lot of TIGHT players because [1] they are more likely to make something, and [2] the ones that don't are more likely to have the cards you need to make a pair.
[6] Manipulating the size of the pot.
[7] Figuring out what you want to do, like raising, then looking for any old excuse to do it.
[8] Failing to bet a questionable hand against a bunch of players.
[9] Getting called on the turn then checking the river for no particular reason.
[10] Under-estimating the ability for loose-players to make loose calls.
[11] Figuring "Tricky" is the routine way to play a hand.
- Louie
ChipWrecked
(addict)
08/24/03 12:12 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "...calling 2 more cold back to them preflop, or coldcalling 2 on the button with like a raiser and one or 2 callers.
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Isn't the number of opponents the key criterion here? I'll admit that I don't have a problem with this hand being capped pre-flop, if I have at least 4 opponents.
Tosh
(Pooh-Bah)
08/24/03 12:32 PM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for a checkraise to be succesful in this case, you want the person to your left to bet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes obviously. Meant to say you want to be to the right of the probably bettor.
ResidentParanoid
(addict)
08/25/03 09:40 AM
Re: 5 things LL players should "unlearn"
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Raising for a free card.
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Of the 5 items, I think I make more money from this one than any other against half-decent players. I bet into a large field on the flop from EP with a made hand, player on the button raises for the free card, I 3 bet from early position, a couple of callers come along. I bet into the field again on the turn. Even when free-card-dude 4-bets the flop, he often doesn't have a hand. I think Homer made similar comments below.
Quote:
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2. Turn check-raise semi-bluffing.
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After re-discovering the turn check-raise of late, I've found myself doing this a couple of times. Yuk.
Quote:
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3. Playing suited connectors for multiple bets preflop.
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Yes, I have seen a fair amount of this, and it is a serious leak. Not me, though.
Quote:
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4. Big offsuit cards and pairs don?t "play well" in big multiway pots.
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Although I see a lot of discussion of this, I'm not sure it translates into anything at the tables. When folks will play 24s multiway , why wouldn't they be in there with KJ?
Quote:
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5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.
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Against loose fishy fields, I still think most A- and K- pair hands with no kicker are going to be dead. But not always. Against an aggressive player, mostly heads-up, I'm sometimes willing to go to war.
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
11/19/03 08:45 AM
*BUMP* N/M
Joe Tall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
02/01/05 05:47 PM
bump
.
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