Short-Changing Another Player...

[ZenMusician]

Hey all.

Good weekend at the 'Woods! I had been playing at this table for about
20 minutes when a player came to fill a seat. He produced a C note and
the guy next to him (a hustler-type player) proceeded to stack out chips
for him (the dealer was in a hand, and player-player chip buying is
generally allowed). I see he gives the guy 2 stacks of yellow and a half
stack of yellow...however the 2 stacks are of 15 and not 20. He says
"count it and make sure it's right" which the player half smiles and just
leaves them in front of him. I glared at the hustler but said nothing...
would you? My thought was...you DID warn him....

-ZEN

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

Yeah, I would've said something; it could've been an honest mistake. If it's not, even more reason not to let hustler get away with it.

-Craig

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
I glared at the hustler but said nothing...
would you? My thought was...you DID warn him....


[/ QUOTE ]

Why ask the question?
Why would someone like you care what other people think?
You have told me everything I need to know about you.

[mosch]

If it was an honest mistake, both parties will be glad that you point it out. If it wasn't an honest mistake, the only person who will be disappointed is a "hustler".

I'd definitely let the guy know that his stacks are off.

If you want to look at it in a more self-centered way, just ask yourself if you really want that tourist losing 1/4 of his money to the hustler before he even plays a hand. Is that good for you?

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
Why ask the question?
Why would <font color="red"> someone like you </font> care what other people think?
You have told me everything I need to know about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

....Sorry I'm still laughing at your reply!

I won't even berate you, this is plenty!

-ZEN

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why ask the question?
Why would <font color="red"> someone like you </font> care what other people think?
You have told me everything I need to know about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

....Sorry I'm still laughing at your reply!

I won't even berate you, this is plenty!

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no. Go ahead. Berate me.
You see someone being cheated and you decide not to say anything. You feel proud? You stand up and announce this to your friends? You tell your family? You think you should get a medal for minding your own business?

Kitty Genovese.

Ooops. Forgot. There is no "Ethics" forum on this board.

[miajag81]

IMO, it is pretty crappy that you didn't say anything. Call me a nit, but I would have pointed this out in a heartbeat.

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
Kitty Genovese.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh.

The "hustler" telling his victim to count the chips to make sure they're right would be something like Kitty Genovese' rapist saying, "Hey, do you mind if I rape you?"

Do you see how that comparision might be a little overboard?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you see how that comparision might be a little overboard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since she was not raped, what's your point?
Since I was alluding to the witnesses and not the two people directly involved, what's your point?

OP showed the same "don't get involved" mentality as those people in the apartments above. Overboard? Yes.

[csuf_gambler]

[ QUOTE ]
I glared at the hustler but said nothing...

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically you're a puzzy and a coward?

[phish]

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically you're a puzzy and a coward?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

Looks like the sentiment is universal. You have an obligation to speak up when you see stuff like this going on. Casinos are full of slimebag hustlers and con men, people who'll borrow money and with no intention of paying back, people who'll ask you to put them in a game, and then pocket 80% of the cash and deliberately lose the rest. I have made it my point to warn newbies about these slimebags. And if their reputation is damaged, well, it's not like they don't deserve it. I've played in casinos for more than a dozen years now and I've seen and heard plenty. Fortunately for me, I've always been too cautious to fall prey to such slimes.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Hell yes you point it out, and do it loudly and obviously so as to embarrass and reveal the jerk doing the shortchanging. Screw hustlers, they should all be banned permanantly for their unethical behavior. I have always won my poker money fair and square, and have little tolerance for cheaters and angle shooters.

al

[otnemem]

You're right. Not sure why I thought rape had something to do with it...

That said, the argument is the same. I understand what you're alluding to, but the difference is that the purchaser could have, and was asked to, count the chips.

(Anyway, in the Kitty Genovese case, nobody did anything because everyone assumed someone else would take action. The OP had no thoughts that someone else might mention the problem. That's what I meant by your analogy being irrelevant.)

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
the purchaser could have, and was asked to, count the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll ignore all the 16yo making their big tough name-calling posts...that
said, the same people who want to play weaker opponents to gain an edge
are the same ones who defend someone who doesn't count his own stack.
If the hustler said nothing I would have said something; he warned his prey
and that guy didn't count it. If he wants to do that in a room full of
surveillance equipment he can be my guest...

-ZEN

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the purchaser could have, and was asked to, count the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll ignore all the 16yo making their big tough name-calling posts...that
said, the same people who want to play weaker opponents to gain an edge
are the same ones who defend someone who doesn't count his own stack.
If the hustler said nothing I would have said something; he warned his prey
and that guy didn't count it. If he wants to do that in a room full of
surveillance equipment he can be my guest...

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

But can't you see that this is all part of his well thought-out scam. If he had just short-changed the guy and the guy catches it (and most times they will), he'll look like an obvious scumbag. But by saying that first, he makes it look like an honest mistake if he's caught. And once in a blue moon, he'll get away with it.

And your keeping quiet just because he warned the guy to count them is simply playing right into his scam.

[dankhank]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell yes you point it out, and do it loudly and obviously so as to embarrass and reveal the jerk doing the shortchanging. Screw hustlers, they should all be banned permanantly for their unethical behavior. I have always won my poker money fair and square, and have little tolerance for cheaters and angle shooters.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

only do it obviously and loudly if you're a jerk. if you're a nice person you should quietly say to the "hustler" that, "hey, those stacks look a little short to me."

a few weeks ago i was coloring up and lined up four stacks of 20 chips and got ready to push them over to the dealer. i didn't notice that the fill button was down and so the dealer said he couldn't make change. then another regular across the table sort of glared at me and said, "they aren't right anyway." i looked at him and he said, "they're all one short." the way it was said got me kind of mad because it sounded like he was implying that i tried to jip the casino out of $20. and i mean, it's not like the dealer wouldn't have carefully counted the chips anyway.

long story, i know, but you can see it made an impression. it was a completely honest mistake and i had to feel uncomfortable about it from someone i have played many hours with. so, yes, say something, but do it quietly because it probably isn't a hustle at all.

[otnemem]

Do you also feel sorry for people who will bet their money on a three-card monte game in Manhattan? I don't. And I'm certainly not going to run up to some rube that's about to lose his shirt because he's too stupid to see the scam. And in this case, again, it would be like the hustler asking the rube, "Are you sure you want to place this wager? Just make sure and get back to me."

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Point taken. My suggestion should have been clarified to only apply to an obvious hustle. Otherwise your approach is most appropriate.

al

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you also feel sorry for people who will bet their money on a three-card monte game in Manhattan? I don't. And I'm certainly not going to run up to some rube that's about to lose his shirt because he's too stupid to see the scam. And in this case, again, it would be like the hustler asking the rube, "Are you sure you want to place this wager? Just make sure and get back to me."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but only cause I'd be afraid of physical violence. If I weren't, you'd bet I'd be in there telling anyone who'd play that it's a scam.

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
No, but only cause I'd be afraid of physical violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you seen Tilt? Those casinos are dangerous...

Believe me, the last thing a three card monte dealer wants in the middle of a crowded street in Manhattan is to create a scene because he needs to beat the [censored] out of some guy who's walking around warning all the tourists...

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I glared at the hustler but said nothing...
would you? My thought was...you DID warn him....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I would. Learn to police your own games. This is bad for the integrity of your table/room.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
that
said, the same people who want to play weaker opponents to gain an edge
are the same ones who defend someone who doesn't count his own stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't see a difference? You would routinely let this guy shortstack people?

Why not compete with him to see who can get to the 'prey' first?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you also feel sorry for people who will bet their money on a three-card monte game in Manhattan?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you wouldn't mind if your room earns a reputation as the 3 card monte room of poker?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
only do it obviously and loudly if you're a jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends on whether the hustler has a history of doing this.

But I agree, put it in a light that it 'could' be an honest mistake.

I also understand Al's feelings towards this that would make him want to call the guy out.

b

[otnemem]

As a matter of fact, I don't play the part of integrity police at the Borgata.

In the words of the great Bad Santa:
"Man, are you [censored] with me?"

Do you honestly think that calling some shmuck out on his hustle because the rube he's dealing with is too stupid or naive to count the [censored] chips is going to restore the integrity of one of these places? To me, none of them have any integrity. EVERYBODY IN A CASINO IS LOOKING TO RIP YOU OFF SOMEHOW! If I don't know you, and you can't look out for yourself, I'm sorry...

[dankhank]

another point: what if later the rube realizes he got hustled and it turns him off to that casino and he never comes again? one less rube at the table....umm, yay?

personally i want rubes to have as many chips as possible in front of them. and at the very least, for a brief time, the chips they paid for.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you honestly think that calling some shmuck out on his hustle because the rube he's dealing with is too stupid or naive to count the [censored] chips is going to restore the integrity of one of these places? To me, none of them have any integrity. EVERYBODY IN A CASINO IS LOOKING TO RIP YOU OFF SOMEHOW!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no they aren't. Keep watching 'tilt'.

Based on this reply, I'd guess you really don't play regularly at a cardroom. Nor do you realize what could happen to a cardroom that has a rep like that.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
one less rube at the table....umm, yay?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, he just wants to play against the better, more aware opponents. You can't beat the suckouts, yknow?

b

[otnemem]

This, to me, is a more viable explanation. It's all this ethics mumbo jumbo. But realistically, at a big casino there will always be rubes to fill the seats...

[otnemem]

No, I don't watch too much Tilt, and I do visit casino cardrooms regularly. So I guess in Bernie world, the casino's just there to show everyone a good time. And all the players that feed off of the horrible playing rubes at the table, that's not ripping them off. Because the rube has decided he wants to gamble with his money, and that's his decision. Give me a [censored] break. You're there to take their money. The casino is there to take his (and your) money. Who's not trying to rip someone off? And saying that you're taking the money fair and square kind of throws your moralistic argument for a loop. If you were really from this moral highground you pretend to speak from, you'd tell them as soon as they sat down, "you know what, maybe this isn't a good idea." Or better yet, you'd get up because you wouldn't want them to lose their money unfairly.

[StellarWind]

Your mistake is thinking this is a poker/casino question.

How did your parents raise you? Is keeping silent while people steal the right thing to do? That's your real question and you don't need to know anything about poker to answer it for yourself.

Poker is enjoying a tremendous boom. Whether this new popularity lasts will largely depend on whether the game cleans itself up. Poker is a game of deception and exploitation, but it is essential that all the "dishonest" stuff stays between the lines. No one should ever lose money in a poker room except by wagering it. Unless those of us who love the game insist on ethics, poker's future as mainstream recreation is very dim.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
As a matter of fact, I don't play the part of integrity police at the Borgata.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is really a shame. Players are the first line of defense. One of the reasons a casino is a relatively safe place to play poker is once you get above the very lowest limits there are at least a coupel of players at the tables that are familiar with the game and will speak up when they spot an irregularity.

Randy Refeld

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
And all the players that feed off of the horrible playing rubes at the table, that's not ripping them off

[/ QUOTE ]

"Ripping them off" implies dishonesty and unfair practice. Apparently you don't know the difference.

[ QUOTE ]
And saying that you're taking the money fair and square kind of throws your moralistic argument for a loop. If you were really from this moral highground you pretend to speak from, you'd tell them as soon as they sat down, "you know what, maybe this isn't a good idea." Or better yet, you'd get up because you wouldn't want them to lose their money unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically you're equating playing winning poker as cheating and playing unfairly.

If you can't see the difference between being shorchanged and losing money in a str8 up game in a casino...

What can I say? You're a peach. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
That is really a shame. Players are the first line of defense. One of the reasons a casino is a relatively safe place to play poker is once you get above the very lowest limits there are at least a coupel of players at the tables that are familiar with the game and will speak up when they spot an irregularity.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to him, they're all colluding with each other.

b

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
According to him, they're all colluding with each other.


[/ QUOTE ]

I try not to jump to conclusions, but I htink his avatar might reveal something about what sort of player he is and what drew him into the casinos.

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to him, they're all colluding with each other.


[/ QUOTE ]

I try not to jump to conclusions, but I htink his avatar might reveal something about what sort of player he is and what drew him into the casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. If you don't realize that my avatar is a joke (those are hearts, stupid), then maybe you want to put your tongue on a scale, just to be certain.

[Lottery Larry]

I would have said something, but not in an accusatory manner unless I knew he was shooting an angle for sure. It might be an honest mistake?