How do you beat maniacs? (long)

[blackaces13]

I play in a game with friends and the blinds are .10/.25. We have no buy in cap and before long the avg. chip stack is $50 which is a lot of BBs. We usually are about 5-7 handed and the typical preflop raise from a lot of these players is anywhere from $3-5, just huge overbets.

Very few pots are unraised preflop and if they are its not uncommon at all to see a $10 flop bet into a $1 pot. Also, multiple callers of these absurd overbets are common. The pot is often upwards of $100 and the blinds as I said are a dime and a quarter. Its a nice mix of manics, calling stations and a couple of decent players that really produces a ton of huge pots and very limited information to go on post flop.

This game should be completely crushable IMO yet after playing in this game for the past couple of months on a weekly basis I am a consistent loser. Its frustrating the hell out of me. I seem to get bullied post flop by guys with nothing and when I do decide to take a stand its usually by going all in over the top of a ridiculous 10X pot bet with something like TPTK which inevitably gets sucked out by an overcaller or is dead to begin with because the player leading happened to get a lucky flop this time.

My strategy since the blinds are so miniscule compared to the typical bets and raises has been to play ultra tight and try to get my money in preflop but now even the most reckless players won't call my gigantic preflop raises so I often have to navigate post flop which is where I seem to get killed and either stack off or win a small pot. I also buy in MUCH bigger than most so when we start I have all players covered easily in an effort to minimize the bully effect. However by the end of the night there are usually multiple super aggro players who have me covered and after enough confrontations with bigger stacks I generally end up broke, even if I had the best of it most times. That last hand of the night generally breaks me since by the end there are some tremendous stacks after the numerous rebuys.

So what's the best approach to a game like this? How do you play speculative hands like suited connectors and medium pockets before the flop? How do you deal with huge bets post flop that you know could be anything from a bluff to the nuts with players behind you and a decent hand such as top pair? Playing draws post flop is tricky and often risky since the flop bets can be huge and folding equity is non-existant ruling out a well timed all-in raise with a flushdraw for instance.

Since the stacks are so deep should see a lot of flops and fold all but absolute monsters? Considering the typical 20X preflop raises I'd be getting moved off a lot of hands post flop for a lot of bets doing that but I'd also double/triple up a lot more. Simply waiting around for super premium hands preflop seems right but it doesn't seem to be working and I miss out on a lot of certain double/triple up spots by folding hands such as 66 or T9s.

Any insight is appreciated. This game is killing me.

[BirdieLongSocks]

I had a game like that that I figured out how to beat, we where 5 regulars and 2 of them hardly ever lost. They bullied the rest of us and took our money with big overbets, and forced us to muck.

I am a very tight player and couldnt play the aggro game as good as them so I started limping in with almost evry hand even the primium ones. When I got raised preflop I moved in with the primium ones and folded the small pairs and suited connectors.

They couldnt handle it and after some session there preflop raises meant primium hand.

I am now a regular winner but I have devolped a little more aggresive stile as my game have progressed.

My advice is to start limp with lots of hands and come over the top of them for all their cash when you think you are ahead.

[DoomSlice]

The thing about maniacs is that they come in with much worse than usual hands, so you don't have to wait for a monster (you'd be more inclined to wait against a TAG), you have to wait for a better than average hand. When you think you are ahead preflop, reraise. You'll start taking down those 20x big blinds quite a bit, and if you're called, you're probably ahead. (I'm talking about hands like ATs and KQs that you usually wouldn't be pushing with).

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a game like that that I figured out how to beat, we where 5 regulars and 2 of them hardly ever lost. They bullied the rest of us and took our money with big overbets, and forced us to muck.

I am a very tight player and couldnt play the aggro game as good as them so I started limping in with almost evry hand even the primium ones. When I got raised preflop I moved in with the primium ones and folded the small pairs and suited connectors.

They couldnt handle it and after some session there preflop raises meant primium hand.

I am now a regular winner but I have devolped a little more aggresive stile as my game have progressed.

My advice is to start limp with lots of hands and come over the top of them for all their cash when you think you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice, but I would add one caveat, throw out the suited connectors more often than the PP. In games like this, people love to play suited cards so often your suited connectors will be up against bigger suits. I maybe wrong about this but I think flushes go down in value because people play so many suited cards. Flushes mean a lot more if it is the nut or second nut flush. But, I think sets go way up in value and since you have such deep stacks you can get more money PF without as much risk.

I also hear it taught that the best defense with maniacs is calling. This is not becoming a calling station because the maniacs are betting your hand for you.

-Gryph

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing about maniacs is that they come in with much worse than usual hands, so you don't have to wait for a monster (you'd be more inclined to wait against a TAG), you have to wait for a better than average hand. When you think you are ahead preflop, reraise. You'll start taking down those 20x big blinds quite a bit, and if you're called, you're probably ahead. (I'm talking about hands like ATs and KQs that you usually wouldn't be pushing with).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed...This is where calling become a powerful weapon against the maniacs. Say you have AJ/AT in MP, maniacs usually play Ax a lot, so you make this a calling down hand because if you try to raise and get reraised it doesn't give you much information and you'll have to drop it. Just remember if they maniacs are playing any A then you can be reasonably sure that you can call down stabs at the pot with cards as low as AT because more often than not they are going to have A9-A2.

-Gryph

[The_Bends]

Interesting point about the lower flush potential. I would generally limp alot of suited gabage knowing that people won't lay down if the flush comes. The again I havn't been overflushed for a long time so I'm probably getting lucky.

[etgryphon]

I'm just formulating this idea...I don't have any evidence other than empirical which could be suspect to say the least. My thoughts are flushes are so OBVIOUS that maniacs can see them so that means you have to raise you SC standards a little to compensate for maniacs who regularly play Axs, Kxs, and even Qxs. So usually my SC are really confined to T9s - KQs. But you can't take a lot of heat with these hands that is also why calling is such a good move with maniacs. It is a really tough strategy because it goes against my style of play which is sLAA (hopefully or i'd like to think it is).

-Gryph

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing about maniacs is that they come in with much worse than usual hands, so you don't have to wait for a monster (you'd be more inclined to wait against a TAG), you have to wait for a better than average hand. When you think you are ahead preflop, reraise. You'll start taking down those 20x big blinds quite a bit, and if you're called, you're probably ahead. (I'm talking about hands like ATs and KQs that you usually wouldn't be pushing with).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed...This is where calling become a powerful weapon against the maniacs. Say you have AJ/AT in MP, maniacs usually play Ax a lot, so you make this a calling down hand because if you try to raise and get reraised it doesn't give you much information and you'll have to drop it. Just remember if they maniacs are playing any A then you can be reasonably sure that you can call down stabs at the pot with cards as low as AT because more often than not they are going to have A9-A2.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with calling down is that most pots are multiway and I generally have a hand that needs protecting. Protecting can get extremely dicey when making a raise virtually pot commits me anyway because a guy is betting $10 into a $2 pot and he does it every hand.

Its the same problem for hands like AT and KJ and the like, sure I'm probably ahead of the first raiser, but there are generally cold callers as well and the times that I am dominated I'm going to get broke. I don't like letting a guy completely control the pace and handing him my stack with a vulnerable, but playable hand.

My attitude as a result of the tiny blinds has been to simply pass on ALL marginal situations and try to wait for spots where I think I have a considerable edge. For instance, fold AT to a big raise (even though I'm most likely ahead) and wait until someone makes the same raise and I've got KK.

The only thing is that playing this way I allow the other players to virtually always know EXACTLY where I am in a hand and as a result while I may take down some rare smallish pots when I have a preflop monster, I forfeit the right to getting loose all in calls and sooner or later I come up short against the lucky maniac for the night and my buy-in is gone.

That's another important thing. There is always someone with a huge stack once this game gets going and if I get all in 3 times as a favorite against that guy and he wins just 1 as the underdog then I'm broke.

[The_Bends]

Well you'd think maniacs could get away from flushes, but a lot can't. The reason, as far as I see it, is that they are so often putting moves on people that when you make a move on such an obvious flush they see a bluff and call.

That said I just looked at my PT stats and flushes are my least profitable hand apart from high card. Although that is only over 3k hands.

Hmm

[jhall23]

Just in general the SC's are going to be worth a lot less in this type of game due to the nature of the game. You are going to flop some sort of draw most of the time and with these crazy overbets your rarely going to be able to draw cheap. Plus your fold equity on semi-bluffs is going to be very low I would imagine.

Not to say I wouldn't ever play them, but they really go down in value in this game. With everyone so deep all PP's should bet good money makers.

[etgryphon]

Remember the calling strategy is in conjunction with playing a little bit looser. If you just go for the TAG strategy, you are telling the people that you have a good hand that you are making your reverse implied odds go through the roof. So in essense you are making you opponents play better because you are only waiting for good hands. Playing Tight works better against calling stations because you can extract maximum profit from their mistakes. Remember in the Theory of Poker you make the most money from making the other guys make mistakes. So what kind of mistakes are you making the maniacs make? With the Tight strategy, they are only making preflop mistakes, which almost could be advertized as proper playing against you because you may have a harder time releasing your premium hands. Remember at a table of maniacs it is tough because its almost like they morph like transformers into a super-maniac-a-bot where you are not just up against one person. Also the play with maniacs has a much higher variance because of their play. You need to give them action on sub-optimal hands so that you can make more money from them on your really optimal hands. You need to set up hands a whole lot more for maniacs. One of the best set ups is to fold to pushes. Make them have to go allin over the top to you that way you can trap them when you have the goods. How does this happen? By Calling...Think like the manaic for a sec:

Maniac: "Dang, this guy keep calling me. I have to raise more to get him to fold..."

Now, you are getting him to commit more chips to the pot (Great thing) because you are going to get him to be pot commited when you have the best hand.

Another recommendation is don't buyin for the max that you have to play with for the moment. Buyin a little short so that you can buy back in. You don't want to be out too soon because all the advertising will go to waste. A lot of these games will go, steady lose ---> big wins later.

-Gryph

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
Just in general the SC's are going to be worth a lot less in this type of game due to the nature of the game. You are going to flop some sort of draw most of the time and with these crazy overbets your rarely going to be able to draw cheap. Plus your fold equity on semi-bluffs is going to be very low I would imagine.

Not to say I wouldn't ever play them, but they really go down in value in this game. With everyone so deep all PP's should bet good money makers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great points...PP should be bread and butter in a game like this.

-Gryph

[grimel]

I'm finding a 34" Louisville Slugger to be near optimal. It lasts a goodly time and is cheap to replace.

I'm in the same boat with you helping to bail.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are flushes are so OBVIOUS that maniacs can see them

[/ QUOTE ]

The good thing about maniacs is they will bluff at any possible flush.

[BirdieLongSocks]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with calling down is that most pots are multiway and I generally have a hand that needs protecting. Protecting can get extremely dicey when making a raise virtually pot commits me anyway because a guy is betting $10 into a $2 pot and he does it every hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that you are afraid of potcommiting, this is something the maniacs love since they know you dont like getting in deep.

Make up your mind on every street, am I ahead? how many outs do I have? Will I get all my chips in this hand?

When you have answered these questions its gets easier as you now can make a stand or get out of the way with as little cash commited as possible.

[IRV]

I sometimes play like a maniac and what bothers me the most is when I'm getting looked up and my bluff attempts fail (no FE). Then I have to resort to going back to ABC poker which is not the most profitable for me.

You'll probably need several buyins though.... and hope the maniac isn't on a rush...GL!!

[bkholdem]

While I understand your point of the game being 'deep stacked' it doesn't really seem to be playing that way. Deep stacked games typically do not have 100 BB in the pot preflop every other hand.

So my thoughts are to ignore what the blinds are 'posted as' and think of the game based on how it plays. I mean think about it, if the blinds were .01 and .02 would you be playing a 5000bb deep stack game (or whatever the rediculous math works out to be)?

It sounds much more like it plays as a .50/1 or 1/2 blinds agressive game. A $50.00 stack in a game with blinds this size is 25-50bb. It sounds like a very agressive pp 25nl game, NOT a deep stack game. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.

If you don't feel comfortable moving in preflop buy in smaller. I'm not tossing in $1 on the flop with suited connectors if it's going to be $8 to go on the button and I only have 25-50 in front of me.

Like one or two other posters have said you could limp with premium hands and push when it gets back to you. Do that with AA, KK, QQ, AK a few times and people are going to stop raising big with junk when you are in a pot.

Caveat: I did this at party 25nl a while back when I first started to play and lost 5 buy in's in a row. The guy was raising every other hand big with junk so I limp, re-raised all in. He called every time and i dominated him every time. He won two times with 9 10off and the best hand he had was A10off. Someone suggested to me just calling and seeing what the flop brings. I don't use the strategy I did then now because I prefer to play post flop. But if the stakes are right (not scary to me) I will flip coins all day as a favorite. A benefit to moving in preflop is shutting out the overcallers (or at least reducing them significantly).

So buy in for 10-20, limp with premium hands, and reraise all in. Do this until you double or triple up (more if you are willing to risk it and they are willing to call) and then you can see flops and play from there. I would not play suited connectors and the like (unless I though that I could push people off hands when I don't hit and felt comfortable doing so) for ~10% of my stack on any type of a regular basis.

If the stakes scare you reconsider if this is a game for you. Also, you may be more comfortable playing limit poker, no limit is not for everyone.

But this does not seem to be a deep stack game so forget the blinds and think of it in terms of what the preflop bets and raises are.

[Spladle Master]

I would give my left nut to play in a game like the one you just described.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I would give my left nut to play in a game like the one you just described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree. Now just tell me how to properly exploit it. I am not a NL player by any means and the huge bets confuse me as to how to preceed most profitably. I'm just a .5/1 limit grinder at the moment but this game is too good not to play in.

[usi34]

I play in a similar game weekly and I'm still having trouble beating it. I have to agree with most of the posters, play extremely tight preflop and get your money in with big pairs. It can be frustrating when people draw out on you with horrible hands but in the long run you'll win.
J Hoov

[Spladle Master]

Disclaimer: I don't think the advice I'm giving is incorrect, but it may be.

You say that the typical pre-flop raise is 12-20xBB, but you didn't mention with what range of hands it is being done. This is very important. You also didn't mention how often re-raises occur, how they are treated, or what range of hands people will call a re-raise with. This, again, is very important. Without this information it's difficult to give advice or formulate an opinion that means [censored].

How would a small raise be treated? Would it often be re-raised by weak holdings? If so, tend to open-raise a small amount with hands that you would like to put in a third pre-flop raise with (what hands those might be depends on which hands you think your opponent would re-raise with, and also which of those hands he would call your re-re-raise with) and limp with those hands you'd like to see a cheap flop with. If there is a raise behind you, fold if you no longer think you can play the hand profitably, but call if you still think you can. Would players who might otherwise have raised a ridiculous amount tend to call your raise instead of re-raising? If so, tend to open-raise a small amount with any hand that you would like to see a cheap flop with. Limp-reraise with those hands that you would like to put in a third pre-flop raise with.

When the absurd flop overbets into unraised pots are made, what sort of hands are they usually made with? Are they very good hands with which the bettor is trying to build a large pot? Are they hands which the bettor thinks may be best but vulnerable? If so, how are raises of these overbets treated? Are they called by marginal hands? If the flop bettor is flat-called, how will he tend to act with various hands on later streets? That is, will he only continue to lead with very strong hands, or will he continue to bet draws or one-pair hands? What range of hands that he will overbet the flop with will he fold on a later street (other than semi-bluffs)?

One thing about your post that I did not like was this quote: "when I do decide to take a stand its usually by going all in over the top of a ridiculous 10X pot bet with something like TPTK which inevitably gets sucked out by an overcaller or is dead to begin with because the player leading happened to get a lucky flop this time." Specifically your use of the word "inevitably." There is absolutely nothing that is inevitable in poker. It's important that you understand that (if you do and your comment was made out of frustration, then I understand).

Another thing is that if these huge flop overbets are often made with hands that have TPTK drawing dead, you probably shouldn't even call with TPTK, let alone raise. The pot odds you are being offered are terrible. You must believe very strongly that you are ahead before a call or raise is correct (unless you think that the bettor will often fold immediately if you raise, in which case the cards you hold are less important). Another time that you can call when you are quite sure you are not ahead is if you believe that you have outs to the best hand and that you have the implied odds necessary to draw to these outs.

You did not address how pots that were raised pre-flop generally play out post-flop. That would be some good information to have.

If you are getting killed post-flop, then you should buy in short in order to maximize the importance of the average pre-flop edge you will hold as a result of playing very tight. Playing deep-stack no-limit hold 'em when you believe that your opponents will make better post-flop decisions than you is absolute suicide. I realize that you've never explicitly said that your opponents are better than you, but if you have been getting killed over a statistically significant number of hands, then they probably are.

The reason for buying in to cover the table is not to "minimize the bully effect." The reason you would do this is if you believe that your hand will be favored to win a pot in which someone is all-in. In other words, you buy in deep to maximize your edge. In your case, however, it doesn't sound like you have an edge, so buying in deep is probably not correct.

Sorry if it seems like I asked more questions than I answered.