A really bad play? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

ajm36

04-19-2005, 06:41 AM

I played this hand tonight, my thought process is at the bottom. Any suggestions? I took the pot, but I feel I made some kind of mistake even being in it and for so long.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (28 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, CO caps, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (24 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, SB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (30 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 34 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jc Tc (three of a kind, tens).
CO has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 34 BB. 

This may be a lousy pre-flop call, but how did I do after that? After SB re-raised preflop and BB and UTG+1 called, I knew at least one MP would call and CO would call (I did not think he would cap). The table was pretty loose. I was sure the pot would be large and I thought I should see the flop. The flop action made me think I was up against AK or large pairs AA-QQ in CO and MP2. I thought another 10 or a Jack would give me the best hand, that gave me four outs. I thought I could call the turn--same thing with the river (I discounted the possibility of an 8 and 9 giving me the straight). At the turn, I still thought I had the odds to call the river. When I rivered the ten, I was sure anyone with pocket pairs would bet the river, or it would be checked through (so what). Was the river raise correct?
I just hit a bad run and am tilting a bit, and I am getting myself involved in hands I should not be in--is this one of those hands.

xenthebrain

04-19-2005, 07:00 AM

Fold this one for two more bets preflop.

The rest is fine IMO. But this only happend because you made the mistake preflop. The flop is only correct because so many come along and the pot is so big.

On the turn in this pot you make a right call with your 4 outs and the river raise is right of course. You have likely the best hand here. I think you would only lose to a better T, because I doubt that CO or MP2 have 77,22 or 66.

jaxUp

04-19-2005, 07:12 AM

I think that this preflop call is fine, if not great. You don't get much more multi-way than this. Getting 7:1 with good-looking implied odds this is an easy call when it comes back for 2 preflop.

xenthebrain

04-19-2005, 07:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this preflop call is fine, if not great. You don't get much more multi-way than this. Getting 7:1 with good-looking implied odds this is an easy call when it comes back for 2 preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right. I'd usually drop this for two more, but with so many involded, JTs is playable.

@bsolute_luck

04-19-2005, 07:37 AM

really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

nh5150

04-19-2005, 08:03 AM

i think i would have played it the same almost. definitely wouldnt have folded to the raises on the flop. i dont know if i would have raised the river, but maybe im not that agg yet /images/graemlins/laugh.gif i say nice hand, well done!

jaxUp

04-19-2005, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the tardy reply...I was never commenting on postflop play. Here's what I think of the flop:

well, we have TPMK and are basically certain we're behind, probably to at least 1 overpair and one TP+ hand. The thing is, even if it gets capped 4-ways here, which it looks like it will, we will still be getting 10:1 on calling 4 cold. Not calling the 2 getting 17:1 (or something absurdly great) on what looks like a 3.5 outer would probably be a slightly losing play. I think we need to call here. Unfortunately it gets capped behind, but I have a really hard time finding a fold on this flop, given the pot size.

That being said, I think it's pretty close, and I'm sure a compelling argument can be made for a fold. Time for bed now though, I'll check it out in the uh...night, when I wake up.

xenthebrain

04-19-2005, 08:36 AM

@bsolute_luck

04-19-2005, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
really, jaxup, this is great? i think i can see the JTs calling with so many along, but i don't understand how the flop is fine. i would think JTs strength is in its straight and flush possibilities- none of which come on the flop. you have a pair of Ts with a Jack kicker.

i know there are a lot of people, but MP2 bets into preflop cappers (set?, AT?), and CO keeps betting (AA-JJ). sure hero gets lucky on river, but why is the flop okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is so huge that it gives you the right odds. There are over 30SB in it and people coming along and you have 4 outs. You just need 1-to-11 to call, and you get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

see i don't know if you have 4 outs. your Ts may be dirty, and the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and T /images/graemlins/spade.gif put 3 on the board. maybe a BDSD with 1.5 outs, but it is gone on the turn. am i looking at this wrong?

jaxUp

04-19-2005, 08:49 AM

Well, The T /images/graemlins/spade.gif is already out, so no need to worry about that. I'm not real worried about a J hitting either, because I'd only be worried about JJ. I think maybe discount the Js to 1.5, and the Ts to 1.75 or so. This is 3.25 outs. Taking into consideration the implied odds, we can call this.

Like I said before, it's a bit close, but I still think it's profitable with implied odds.

sungod

04-19-2005, 08:52 AM

I think you should fold this preflop when the SB raises the CO.

On the flop the pot is huge. When you call you need to consider the chance that it'll be raised and capped behind you. You can't like your hand even if you have top pair with a decent kicker. You will most certainly have to improve to take the pot in this kind of action, and if you catch the jack of spades you might still be doomed. But the pot is just too big to fold, and when it gets capped you are sucked in already and have to call.

On the turn you hit a blank. It probably didn't help any others either, so you still have about four outs. I assume MP2 might be on the flush draw as he came live after the flop.

The river you lucked out and it was a nice raise.

Now I was grunching, so don't slaughter me if you all disagree. But don't include results please.

xenthebrain

04-19-2005, 08:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should fold this preflop when the SB raises the CO.

On the flop the pot is huge. When you call you need to consider the chance that it'll be raised and capped behind you. You can't like your hand even if you have top pair with a decent kicker. You will most certainly have to improve to take the pot in this kind of action, and if you catch the jack of spades you might still be doomed. But the pot is just too big to fold, and when it gets capped you are sucked in already and have to call.

On the turn you hit a blank. It probably didn't help any others either, so you still have about four outs. I assume MP2 might be on the flush draw as he came live after the flop.

The river you lucked out and it was a nice raise.

Now I was grunching, so don't slaughter me if you all disagree. But don't include results please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he had to call 4 bets cold he would be right to call I think, with all the people coming along.
There would have been 22BB in there (assuming everyone who bet/raised before on the flop, will stay in) and he had to pay 2, so it is 11-to-1 and a right call.

sungod

04-19-2005, 09:00 AM

Yes, I agree. I almost got to that in my post, but not entirely. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ErrantNight

04-19-2005, 09:23 AM

preflop is close but fine. when it comes back 2 to you i'd consider folding, but the pot looks like it's going to be huge, so i'd stick around, pretty much every single time.

after that, this pot is so frickin' huge and i'm so frickin' lazy i can't determine off the top of my head if this is solid or not, but i suspect you overplayed it. you have to discount your outs slightly for the spades, and you're certainly drawing, your J outs may be tainted (either immediately, or by presenting redraws), and if someone has a set you're drawing dead. so while you're being laid incredible odds, it's possible you'll hit and still lose, and this becomes a far more severe problem if you hit your T on the turn, invest a lot, and get drawn out on on the river.

all that said, i'm too lazy to actually do the math, and the pot is huge, so it's probably not a huge mistake to keep playing, all things considered.