Bad river bets?

[cold_cash]

It seems that not long ago I was constantly checking when I should have been betting when all the cards were out. Am I over compensating?


Hand 1

Villian is loose and passive, but over a small sample.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

__________________________________________________ _________

Hand 2

Opponent just sat down and is completely unknown to me.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets....

[MoreWineII]

I bet both, but I think hand two is easier than one.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that not long ago I was constantly checking when I should have been betting when all the cards were out. Am I over compensating?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in the opposite camp - checking too often when I should be betting.

Hand 1: How loose is Villain post-flop? I am trying to put him on a range of hands that he calls your raise in the BB, calls this flop, calls this turn, and will still call a river bet with a hand you beat. Will he ever raise the river? Will he call down with a mid-pocket pair? With bottom pair? Even with a PFR from the SB betting into an A-high flop that brings in a flush draw on the river? I'd lean towards a check-call in this hand on the theory that he is calling down with a weak A, a J, or a busted /images/graemlins/heart.gif flush draw. If he'll call down with bottom pair and never release a PP, I like the bet more. Are you calling a raise on the river?

Hand 2: Again I'm trying to find a range of hands that he CC's in MP3 and then calls down on this board. A suited T9 maybe but our 2 Ts make that less likely. A hand with an 8 in it? This one may be monsters under the bed syndrome, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to be raised by a turned flush that went for the overcall on the turn. Are you folding to a raise here?

[wrto4556]

Hand 1 is tricky. I don't like check/folding and I definately dont like check/calling...bet/fold, i guess. Just not a very good board for KK.

[KDawgCometh]

man, hand 1 sucks. I'm torn, but I guess betting out is the least bad of three bad options. Hand 2 looks like a good value bet to me

[cold_cash]

I would have folded to a raise in Hand 1. Even though I didn't have a lot of hands on him I didn't think this guy was capable of bluffing at me on the river. Also, that board looks pretty scary unless you're holding an Ace or a Jack. (Which is an argument for not betting, probably.)

Hand 2 I'm not really sure how I would have handled a raise. I guess I would be more inclined to call simply because this was literally like the third hand I'd played with this guy.

As it turns out, I won both hands when my opponents folded.

[Catt]

Yeah - I would've folded to a raise in Hand 1 but called in Hand 2.

I really effing hate it when it's folded to my bet on the river -- I convince myself that a weaker hand would've bet against my check and I pocket an extra BB, but I think I am letting too many hands get checked through (i.e., a hand that would've called a bet but not bet itself).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hand one, i don't mind checking and folding this river.

hand two is an easy bet.

[cold_cash]

Value betting on the river has been one of my biggest struggles as I've been moving up limits. I struggled long and hard with it when I was just starting out, and after missing probably millions of bets and thinking about hundreds of hands, I'm still struggling.

One thing I've learned though, is that there are many, many players who will call you down with complete crap. Whenever I think "no worse hand is calling", I always think back to the times I've been called by players who are playing the board, or by players who are literally holding the nut-low. Then I end up betting in spots where I might have made more had I let my opponent take the lead.

I also think another one of my problems is that while I'm playing I don't stop and think, I just assume the other guy is a tool and bet.

[billyjex]

I don't see what hand calls our bet in hand 1 that we beat. He will have us beat much more often than if he has a 5. If he has an A he's probably passive enough to check the river so we get a free showdown as well.

If we check and he bets, I would call because of the busted flush draw.

[HajiShirazu]

Yeah, good point. I always assume total donk until proven otherwise, but the fact is that most people aren't that bad, they only call about 50% more than they should, not three times as often. It's just that I tend to remember the times that I bet and get shown some unbelievable payoff hand that I never even considered someone would call with. But especially with position or against players who are weak enough to check an obvious value betting hand I think I should stop and think before some of these.

[chief444]

Hand 1 I think is close between a check/fold and a check/call. I probably check/call because of the small sample. I don't like the bet here though because there's really just not much you're ahead of other than a busted draw.

Hand 2 looks like a very easy bet.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I think is close between a check/fold and a check/call. I probably check/call because of the small sample. I don't like the bet here though because there's really just not much you're ahead of other than a busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked a check/call on Hand 1 because it's also a good card for Villian to bluff at. However, I see in a previous post that Hero didn't think Villian was capable of putting that bluff bet in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 looks like a very easy bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MCS]

Hand 1: My instinct is to bet, but the more I think about it the less I can figure out what hands we're hoping to beat. I guess I check-fold, but it feels wrong. A check-call makes me happier but if he'll bet a 5, he'll call with a 5 too, so I think check-call is wrong.

I guess he could just bluff or something. I still say bet.

Hand 2: Bet. I see no reason to think you're beaten and whatever hand is calling obviously didn't think you had it beat before, so why would it think that now? Hope you didn't get river-two-paired.

[QTip]

This is encouraging...something must be sneaking it's way into my thick skull because this is what I had when I read it...nice...is it possible I'm learning? OMG