Who belongs in the baseball HOF? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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04-18-2005, 06:32 PM

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Pedro, Griffey Jr., Mussina, Thomas, and Biggio. Ichiro probably with time, but not yet. There are others who should be on the list too. Not thinking of them now though.

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Mussina?

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I actually didn't vote him in, but after thinking about it, he was solid. 3.6 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 2250 k's. That's probably not HoF worthy though.

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I don't think so. Very good pitcher but never really the best in league and many times not the best in his staff. Still he no slouch, just not HOF IMO.

For Comparision David Cone 194-126, 3.46ERA, 2668K, 56CG, 22Sho.

Mussina 211-120, 3.60 ERA, 2269K, 54CG, 21SHO,

Very close and Cone is not considered a HOF pitcher.

Voltron87

04-18-2005, 06:33 PM

Rivera is a lock, yes.

Uston

04-18-2005, 06:37 PM

To the other guy though, having Palmeiro in there is laughable. Career OPS <.9

So the HOF is going to start keeping guys with 600 HR's and 3,000 hits out?

istewart

04-18-2005, 06:39 PM

Palmeiro will almost certainly make it. Him being a part-time DH won't help though.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 06:39 PM

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Pedro, Griffey Jr., Mussina, Thomas, and Biggio. Ichiro probably with time, but not yet. There are others who should be on the list too. Not thinking of them now though.

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Biggio and not Bagwell? Has Biggio ever had a better season than Bagwell?

Max Raker

04-18-2005, 06:47 PM

What about Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine? I think Maddux is a lock and Glavine should be on the list. Right?

Boris

04-18-2005, 06:49 PM

I can't believe how many people voted for Piazza ahead of Jeff Kent. Kent has been a stud 2nd baseman for along time. Piazza is a one dimensional player who is not even close to mediocre on defense. Piazza is a terrible catcher and I think this should keep him out of the hall, regardless of the awesome offensive production.

MicroBob

04-18-2005, 06:49 PM

I am not really sure how I feel about Franco.

I really think he has had an above-average career certainly...but above-average shouldn't be enough to get you in the Hall obviously.

He is 2nd all-time in saves I believe. And 300 saves is considered a significant milestone...so that alone might get him there.

This debate on whether Franco is HOF caliber has been going on for the better part of 5-10 years. I think the longer he has stuck around the more he has solidified his spot there just by adding on saves.

Personally, I'd almost rather vote for Julio Franco for the HOF.
46 years-old and still contributing. Wow!!

I don't think Mussina is deserving.

Chipper, Edmonds, Percival and Finley don't exactly blow me away.

Jeff Kent was mentioned in the same breath as 'Hall-of-famer' on an ESPN telecast I believe recently and it honestly had never occured to me that he might actually receive consideration.
Haven't looked at his numbers (or those of Chipper and the other guys either) but I suspect Kent can make it.

Ichiro will get there imo. Obviously not deserving yet but I suspect he will continue to hit.

I think that Beltre could be good enough by the time his career concludes. he's only 25 or 26 now so he still has plenty of years to pad his HR and RBI total. He's already a very good fielder.

Eric Gagne will have a legitimate chance if he can have one or two more really good years followed with a few semi-decent years in there.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 06:49 PM

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Pedro, Griffey Jr., Mussina, Thomas, and Biggio. Ichiro probably with time, but not yet. There are others who should be on the list too. Not thinking of them now though.

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Biggio and not Bagwell? Has Biggio ever had a better season than Bagwell?

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Has Bagwell ever played a game at catcher, second base, or center field?

Dead

04-18-2005, 06:51 PM

Mussina will get in the Hall of Fame. He will pitch 3 more years, get to 250+ wins, and he will get in the Hall.

On an unrelated note, I can't believe that the OP left out Tom Glavine! HE IS A LOCK for the Hall.

You said Griffey is debatable, BWebb? He is 500+ HR. Anyone with 500+ HR up till now will get in the Hall.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 06:51 PM

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What about Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine? I think Maddux is a lock and Glavine should be on the list. Right?

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Maddux is obviously a lock, I'm sure this is why he was left off this list. I'm not sure why Pedro is on this list. He is 100% lock.

MicroBob

04-18-2005, 06:51 PM

Piazza is indeed kind of a weird one because after his rookie of the year season and a few more stellar years with LA that launched him to stardom he has been not as spectacular in NY.

You are correct about his defense.
But he has enough HR's as a catcher to get him there.
I just can't see the committee keeping him out...but Kent will have a tougher battle to get in. I think he makes it there though...although likely not on the first ballot.

[censored]

04-18-2005, 06:51 PM

My ballot including some stats as evidence for the deserving. I do not think 400+ HR = HOF.

AS = All star games

Biggio - NO
Bagwell - NO
Thomas - NO
Palmeiro - Yes 550 HR 4AS
Piazza - Yes CA, 379HR, 10AS
Kent - NO
Griffey JR - Yes 500HR, 10AS
Gonzalez - NO
Smoltz - undecided
Mussina - NO
Martinez - Yes
Thome - no

Smoltz is a tough case.

Max Raker

04-18-2005, 06:54 PM

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What about Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine? I think Maddux is a lock and Glavine should be on the list. Right?

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Maddux is obviously a lock, I'm sure this is why he was left off this list. I'm not sure why Pedro is on this list. He is 100% lock.

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Yeah, i was confused by the inclusion of some obvious locks and the exclusion of others.

MicroBob

04-18-2005, 06:54 PM

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I can't believe that the OP left out Tom Glavine! HE IS A LOCK for the Hall.

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If Glavine is a LOCK for the hall than OP left him off the list.

Of course....this doesn't explain the inclusion of a couple of players on that list who are likely locks.
griffey with 500 HR's springs to mind....as does Pedro.

neither belongs on a list of "borderline" HOF candidates.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 06:55 PM

Piazza has been as good of a hitter as Jeff Bagwell over the course of his career, and plays the position that is the toughest to find a good hitter at.

Voltron87

04-18-2005, 06:55 PM

Being a catcher usually can put someone with Piazzaesque numbers in but not if the player is a defensive liability. I say no on Piazza.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 06:56 PM

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Being a catcher usually can put someone with Piazzaesque numbers in but not if the player is a defensive liability. I say no on Piazza.

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This is so insane. I don't think you guys realize how crazy Piazza's hitting #s are. He might make the HOF if he was a DH.

Voltron87

04-18-2005, 06:58 PM

I'm usually stricter on HOF discussion so that will but this in context a little. I know how good his #'s are, but he is so poor defensively I don't think he is a HOFfer.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:01 PM

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Pedro, Griffey Jr., Mussina, Thomas, and Biggio. Ichiro probably with time, but not yet. There are others who should be on the list too. Not thinking of them now though.

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Biggio and not Bagwell? Has Biggio ever had a better season than Bagwell?

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Has Bagwell ever played a game at catcher, second base, or center field?

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Having a better season obviously includes fielding. So again, has Biggio ever had a better season?

Max Raker

04-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Glavine is no where near a lock, in fact I would say that he would be one of the "locks" to make a list like this as well as Palmerio. God it seems like the Palmerio debate has been going on for 10 years. Dam, i dont think i can even spell his name. Thats why he's such a tough one to figure out.

Max Raker

04-18-2005, 07:08 PM

The Piazza argument is laughable. There are all ready too few catchers in the Hall and you wanna leave off maybe the greatest offensive catcher in history?? And if he was THAT bad at catcher they would have moved him to 1b or the AL.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:15 PM

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I'm usually stricter on HOF discussion so that will but this in context a little. I know how good his #'s are, but he is so poor defensively I don't think he is a HOFfer.

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That is so ridiculous Voltron.

Piazza has more HR's than any catcher in history. He has a lifetime batting average of .315. This might be tops for catchers as well. And he is not that bad defensively. He is not like an I-Rod, but he is still awesome. He'll have no trouble getting in.

And speaking of I-Rod, he is as much of a lock as you can be.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:16 PM

Holy crap I haven't heard "I-Rod" in 5 years. What happened to that nickname?

Superfluous Man

04-18-2005, 07:17 PM

Rusty Kuntz.

Also, Pete LaCock.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:19 PM

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Holy crap I haven't heard "I-Rod" in 5 years. What happened to that nickname?

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You obviously don't watch much baseball. I hear that moniker almost every game that I-Rod plays.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:21 PM

only two are definitve to me, Griffey Jr. and Pedro. Piazza is probably in as well. As for the rest, debates could be made for either side. BTW, where is Edgar?

BWebb

04-18-2005, 07:22 PM

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On an unrelated note, I can't believe that the OP left out Tom Glavine! HE IS A LOCK for the Hall.

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That is why I left him off, he's a lock.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:23 PM

Maybe it's because I'd never bother to watch a [censored] Tigers game.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:23 PM

Edgar doesn't deserve induction.

He played 70% of his games at DH and he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

I know that you like him because he's an M, but he just doesn't deserve it. He was absolutely horrible defensively. One of the worst 3B's that I ever saw.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:24 PM

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On an unrelated note, I can't believe that the OP left out Tom Glavine! HE IS A LOCK for the Hall.

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That is why I left him off, he's a lock.

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But Griffey and Pedro are locks, and they're on the list.

Griffey has 500 HR's +

Pedro has the greatest ERA+ of all time.

And you have Palmeiro on. Palmeiro will have 3000 hits and 600 home runs before he's done. How many HOFers can say that?

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:25 PM

you really think half the players on that list deserve induction?

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:29 PM

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you really think half the players on that list deserve induction?

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I'll tell you who I think deserves induction on that list, with a yes or a no.

Who belongs in HOF?

Craig Biggio - Yes

Jeff Bagwell - Yes

Frank Thomas - Yes

Ken Griffey Sr. - No

Rafael Palmeiro - Yes

Mike Piazza - Yes

Jeff Kent - No

John Smoltz - No

Ichiro - No

Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes

Juan Gonzalez - No

Troy Percival - No

Chipper Jones - No

Jim Edmonds - No

Steve Finley - No

John Franco - No

Trevor Hoffman - No

Mike Mussina - No

Pedro Martinez - Yes

Kevin Brown - No

Jim Thome - No

Now these decisions that I came up with are who I think would deserve it if they retired today. Some of the players that I gave no's to may very well deserve to be in the Hall after their careers are up. But the ones that I gave yes's to would get in if they retired today.

Max Raker

04-18-2005, 07:30 PM

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On an unrelated note, I can't believe that the OP left out Tom Glavine! HE IS A LOCK for the Hall.

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That is why I left him off, he's a lock.

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Are you serious??? Glavine is a lock but Pedro might not make it?

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:31 PM

so no to Griffey Jr., but yes to Biggio, Bagwell, and Thomas....wow, you....are really stupid.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:31 PM

I thought Griffey Jr. was a lock.

tbach24

04-18-2005, 07:33 PM

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Pedro, Griffey Jr., Mussina, Thomas, and Biggio. Ichiro probably with time, but not yet. There are others who should be on the list too. Not thinking of them now though.

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Biggio and not Bagwell? Has Biggio ever had a better season than Bagwell?

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Damn, I'm thinking too intelligently. I'm pretty sure it was Bill James who said that Biggio was the 2nd best player of the 90's. I keep forgetting that it's sports writers who vote, not intelligent people.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:35 PM

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so no to Griffey Jr., but yes to Biggio, Bagwell, and Thomas....wow, you....are really stupid.

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I meant to give Griffey a YES.

It was a [censored] typo. Give me a break. In fact, if you go back a page in this thread you will see me yelling at the OP for not thinking that Griffey was a lock.

I'll fix it.

But, hey, Edgar deserves it right? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif That's just genius.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:36 PM

if you don't change it, I will never forgive you.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:39 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:41 PM

I think Edgar deserves it, but I am biased, so what, you wanna fight about it?

MicroBob

04-18-2005, 07:41 PM

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Are you serious??? Glavine is a lock but Pedro might not make it?

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I agree...I don't think there is too much doubt about either one making it...but Pedro is certainly more of a 'lock' than Glavine.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:42 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

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You ripping on Paul Molitor now? I'm n ot a fan of his or anything but Paul Molitor was one of the greatest hitters of all time.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:42 PM

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I think Edgar deserves it, but I am biased, so what, you wanna fight about it?

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I thought that's what we were doing.

pshreck

04-18-2005, 07:44 PM

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I think Edgar deserves it, but I am biased, so what, you wanna fight about it?

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its "big whoop, you wanna fight about it?"

bholdr

04-18-2005, 07:44 PM

Rafi Palmeiro:

all time:
hits: 33rd and climbing
HRs: 10th- will probably get to 7th
RBIs: 17th
Runs: 38th
Walks 33rd
2B: 17th

he is a lock- first ballot, IMO.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:45 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

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You ripping on Paul Molitor now? I'm n ot a fan of his or anything but Paul Molitor was one of the greatest hitters of all time.

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Dude, Edgar had a higher BA. Discussion over.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:46 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

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You ripping on Paul Molitor now? I'm n ot a fan of his or anything but Paul Molitor was one of the greatest hitters of all time.

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Dude, Edgar had a higher BA. Discussion over.

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Lol.

BWebb

04-18-2005, 07:48 PM

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Sure I left some out and I'm sure some of these are sure things, but I'm at work, so lets just go with it.

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Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:49 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

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You ripping on Paul Molitor now? I'm n ot a fan of his or anything but Paul Molitor was one of the greatest hitters of all time.

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Dude, Edgar had a higher BA. Discussion over.

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Lol.

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Why do you think Molitor was better?

bholdr

04-18-2005, 07:53 PM

Edgar Martinez:

has .400+OBP, .300+BA, 1200+RBIs, 500+ doubles, 1200+ BBs, 2000+ hits.

only others to have all of this?
Musial, Williams, Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Bonds.

Gar had fewer ABs than any of them, and is considered the greatest DH ever. HoF, or it's a damn shame. he is, IMO, among the top 10 hitters of all time.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:53 PM

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he wasn't a Paul Molitor.

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LOL.

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You ripping on Paul Molitor now? I'm n ot a fan of his or anything but Paul Molitor was one of the greatest hitters of all time.

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Dude, Edgar had a higher BA. Discussion over.

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Lol.

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Why do you think Molitor was better?

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If Edgar is a 3B or a 1B with his stats, does he get in? Of course not.

Molitor would get in as a non-DH, though, because of his 3300 hits, his 600 doubles, etc.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:54 PM

Molitor is considered the greatest DH by most people, I think.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:55 PM

Uhh, yeah, except by saying "he was a DH and not even a Paul Molitor," you are clearly talking about his hitting ability.

Why do you think Molitor was a better HITTER?

Voltron87

04-18-2005, 07:55 PM

in other news, the yankees lead 9-0 after a 9 run second inning: wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Dead

04-18-2005, 07:57 PM

I'm watching it. Great stuff. /images/graemlins/grin.gif It's 13-0 now though.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 07:58 PM

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Molitor is considered the greatest DH by most people, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]no.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 07:58 PM

I just Googled "greatest DH of all time" and almost all relevant pages were about Edgar.

Voltron87

04-18-2005, 07:59 PM

Whoooooot. G Chef with the grand slam. 13-0 in the second.

Dead

04-18-2005, 08:01 PM

Full-time DH maybe.

Dead

04-18-2005, 08:02 PM

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Whoooooot. G Chef with the grand slam. 13-0 in the second.

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Tino hit the grand slam, not G Chef.

istewart

04-18-2005, 08:06 PM

Chili Davis

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 08:07 PM

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Why do you think Molitor was a better HITTER?

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bholdr

04-18-2005, 08:21 PM

1st ballot locks:

Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
the Rickey

should get in on their first try:

Palmeiro
Mariano Rivera
Mike Piazza
Pedro

might take a little while, but they'll make it:

Jeff Bagwell
Ken Griffey Jr
John Smoltz
Andres Galragga
Todd Helton (coors feild may present an obstacle to the man who owns the 16th highest all time BA)

on the bubble:

the rest of the OP's list

future prospects:

Ichiro- unless he gets hurt, he'll be a first ballot lock
Mark Mulder- too early to tell, but may be the only member of his generation that has a shot at 300 wins
A-Rod- would take a miricle to keep him out
Tejada- this guy just keeps getting better
Jeter- a lock. damn the stastics- Jeter is IMHO, one of the all time greats.
Pujols- scary when you consider he's only 25
Vlad Guererro- gotta stay healthy
Manny- barring disaster, a lock
Wood, Prior: too young to know, but looking good.

Don't get no respect:

Edgar Martinez. one of the all time great hitters, should get in first ballot, IMO, may not make it at all- why not? DH, which is a stupid reason.

that's all i can think of right now. thoughts?

mmbt0ne

04-18-2005, 08:25 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
John Smoltz - No

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14-4 in the playoffs with a 2.70 ERA, 2 CG, and 1 shutout. He also has 4 playoff saves.

If he had stayed as a closer he would've been one of the best ever. He averaged 40 saves per year over his first 4 years closing. From 1995-1999 he went 79-38 with a 3.04 ERA, and won the 1996 CY. He was turning into a dominant pitcher, who transformed himself into a dominant closer.

I think it would've been easier if he had stayed as a closer, but I have faith that he'll pad his started stats, get 37 more wins to crack 200, and make it into the hall. The playoff numbers are what set him apart from most pitchers.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 08:27 PM

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Why do you think Molitor was a better HITTER?

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B00T

04-18-2005, 08:30 PM

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Mussina will get in the Hall of Fame. He will pitch 3 more years, get to 250+ wins, and he will get in the Hall.

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Seriously, you outdo yourself every single day. Such a post should warrant a one month suspension from posting.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 08:52 PM

The fact that Ichiro has more votes than Craig Biggio is a goddamned travesty.

tbach24

04-18-2005, 08:54 PM

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The fact that Ichiro has more votes than Craig Biggio is a goddamned travesty.

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Agreed. Wasn't he the 2nd best player in baseball in the 90's according to James?

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 08:56 PM

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The fact that Ichiro has more votes than Craig Biggio is a goddamned travesty.

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Biggio is an absolute lock for the HOF the first time he becomes eligible.

Jeff W

04-18-2005, 09:00 PM

Biggio and Piazza. Martinez and Jr. Griffey are stone cold locks and shouldn't be on the list.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 09:08 PM

Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 09:10 PM

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Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

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If you don't think Biggio belongs in the HOF then you probably stopped reading when you were about 7.

Glenn

04-18-2005, 09:10 PM

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I can't believe how many people voted for Piazza ahead of Jeff Kent. Kent has been a stud 2nd baseman for along time.

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Maybe it's because Piazza has a 30 point higher BA than Kent? Or the 30 point higher OBP? Or 75 more home runs? How about the 50 point higher SLG? 10 All-Star appearnces to 4? 10 Consecutive Silver Slugger awards to 4 total? 26th on the all time list in OPS (34th Adjusted) as opposed to not close to the top 100?

Mike Piazza is one of the better hitters to ever play baseball when you look at his stats straight up. Now factor in that he is a catcher. The issue is not that you take a great hitter and put him at catcher and it inflates his stats. The issue is the toll catching takes on a player's body. If Mike Piazza was moved to 1b in 1994, he would probably have a .325 career avg and close to 500 hr's now. And he would have a bunch of good seasons left in him. 2b is a good example of a position where merely competant hitting looks good. The act of catching every day for years makes good hitters bad, so if they look competant, they might be great.

Also, you apparently haven't watched Piazza catch very often, at least since he's become a Met. He is terrible at throwing to second, but is otherwise more than adequate at the position.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 09:17 PM

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Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

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If you don't think Biggio belongs in the HOF then you probably stopped reading when you were about 7.

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LOL, Craig Biggio....Make sure to sit him next to Johnny Bench at the dinner.

Yeah right...

That's just funny on too many levels.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 09:24 PM

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Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

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If you don't think Biggio belongs in the HOF then you probably stopped reading when you were about 7.

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LOL, Craig Biggio....Make sure to sit him next to Johnny Bench at the dinner.

Yeah right...

That's just funny on too many levels.

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Biggio is one of the greatest 2B of all time.

Hits: 2,639+
HR: 234+
RBI: 994+
BB: 1,060+
OBP: .373
SLG: .435
OPS+: 116

4 Gold Gloves.

His 5 most similar batters according to baseball-reference:

Roberto Alomar
Lou Whitaker
Joe Morgan
Ryne Sandberg
Barry Larkin

Of those players, Morgan is already in the HOF and Alomar, Sandberg, and Larkin will be.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 09:36 PM

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Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

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If you don't think Biggio belongs in the HOF then you probably stopped reading when you were about 7.

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LOL, Craig Biggio....Make sure to sit him next to Johnny Bench at the dinner.

Yeah right...

That's just funny on too many levels.

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Biggio is one of the greatest 2B of all time.

Hits: 2,639+
HR: 234+
RBI: 994+
BB: 1,060+
OBP: .373
SLG: .435
OPS+: 116

4 Gold Gloves.

His 5 most similar batters according to baseball-reference:

Roberto Alomar
Lou Whitaker
Joe Morgan
Ryne Sandberg
Barry Larkin

Of those players, Morgan is already in the HOF and Alomar, Sandberg, and Larkin will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, you forgot one...

Batting Average - .287

Just because you play a long time and accumalate numbers does not mean you should be IMMORTALIZED in the hall.

He is a good player, but one of the greatest ?

Uhhhh, no.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Palmero and Pedro are the only ones on the list that will make it and neither will be first ballot. Maybe Pedro for his post season performances, but not both...

Jeff Kent, Craig Biggio?, Chipper Jones? This is where I almost stopped reading... Comeon...That's just silly. None of these fools have a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think Biggio belongs in the HOF then you probably stopped reading when you were about 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, Craig Biggio....Make sure to sit him next to Johnny Bench at the dinner.

Yeah right...

That's just funny on too many levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Biggio is one of the greatest 2B of all time.

Hits: 2,639+
HR: 234+
RBI: 994+
BB: 1,060+
OBP: .373
SLG: .435
OPS+: 116

4 Gold Gloves.

His 5 most similar batters according to baseball-reference:

Roberto Alomar
Lou Whitaker
Joe Morgan
Ryne Sandberg
Barry Larkin

Of those players, Morgan is already in the HOF and Alomar, Sandberg, and Larkin will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, you forgot one...

Batting Average - .287

Just because you play a long time and accumalate numbers does not mean you should be IMMORTALIZED in the hall.

He is a good player, but one of the greatest ?

Uhhhh, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please see the other thread about BA. Thanks. I don't care if you think Biggio will get in or not. He will, and that is all there is to it.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 09:46 PM

Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 09:47 PM

I honestly don't see how he(Biggio) is a lock. I think he has a good chance, but definitely not a lock.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here, you forgot one...

Batting Average - .287

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, compared to the league avergae of .265. That seems pretty good.

Here... do me a favor. Name me 10 2B better than Craig Biggio. I'll give you a running start!

Joe Morgan
Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer

There's 5. Maybe I'll give you Jackie if I'm feeling charitable... I'll thrown in Bobby Doerr.

Biggio is better than 75% of the 2B in the Hall, and it's not just with counting stats, but rate stats as well. Some of his seasons (94, 95, 97, 98) were MVP worthy. He's a better 2B than Jeff Kent. Flip a coin with Alomar.

tbach24

04-18-2005, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a moron. Please stop posting about baseball. Biggio has had an amazing career. Average is nothing when talking about the relative standing of a baseball player. Learn something, then post about it. Thanks.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 09:52 PM

From this list:

Biggio, Bagwell, Thomas, Palmeiro, Junior Griffey, Pedro, Piazza. I don't think my picks are very debatable.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a moron. Please stop posting about baseball. Biggio has had an amazing career. Average is nothing when talking about the relative standing of a baseball player. Learn something, then post about it. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was giving him more ammo...moron.

By the way, hows Biggio's post-season record?

Dead

04-18-2005, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a moron. Please stop posting about baseball. Biggio has had an amazing career. Average is nothing when talking about the relative standing of a baseball player. Learn something, then post about it. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was giving him more ammo...moron.

By the way, hows Biggio's post-season record?

[/ QUOTE ]

How is Bonds's post-season record?

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From this list:

Biggio, Bagwell, Thomas, Palmeiro, Junior Griffey, Pedro, Piazza. I don't think my picks are very debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bagwell and Thomas were born on the exact same day. You can't have two guys go in who were born on the same day. Don't cheapen baseball. Just kidding. I think those are solid picks as well.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 10:00 PM

I don't understand why people don't want Biggio in the HOF. Biggio has had a much better career than many of the middle-infielders, catchers, and centerfielders in the HOF.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:02 PM

His post season record is abysmal, likely due to bad luck ("running bad," "short smaple") and due to having to face Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Steve Avery, etc...

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is Bonds's post-season record?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, was he on the OP's list, or part of the discussion?

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His post season record is abysmal, likely due to bad luck ("running bad," "short smaple") and due to having to face Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Steve Avery, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Darn, sucks having to face tough pitching...sounds like a job for a Hall of Famer...oops, all we have is Biggio, guess we lose (and did).

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:18 PM

Because no Hall of Famer ever slumped...

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:21 PM

By the way, the *other* 10,000 plate appearances are much more important.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because no Hall of Famer ever slumped...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not a matter of slumping...It's a matter of winning.

What has he won?

Everyone seems pretty quick to add him to a list of 17 players spanning over 100 years...based on his stats.

Sorry. There have been a lot of great players with great stats and they are not in the hall.

Where are his records? What has his teams ever won?

Roan

04-18-2005, 10:26 PM

Paluka

04-18-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry. There have been a lot of great players with great stats and they are not in the hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name 5.

Dead

04-18-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His post season record is abysmal, likely due to bad luck ("running bad," "short smaple") and due to having to face Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Steve Avery, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is Steve Avery doing on this list?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't fear his 4.14 career era, and his 96-83 career record? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think Molitor was a better HITTER?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead

04-18-2005, 10:30 PM

Because he was more productive at the plate. 3300 hits.

Paluka

04-18-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite certain that you could not hit that link up yourself and tell us anything meaningful about most of the players on that list. If you could, you would know that Biggio is a much better ball player than the likes of Nellie Fox, Phil Rizzuto, etc...

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:34 PM

What has Bonds ever won? Ted Williams? A-Rod? Bagwell? Thomas? Griffey? Piazza?

There are plenty of Hall of Famers that never won anything, and it's becoming more and more coming with the increase of teams.

Dead

04-18-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the list of Current Hall of Fame Players... (http://baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/players.htm)

Notice how short it is in comparison to how long baseball has been around?

Craig Biggio....hardie har har har har

Come on...I'm not tring to bust your balls here, but look at that list and tell me he fits in, let alone many of the others listed...

Please. Don't cheapen Baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite certain that you could not hit that link up yourself and tell us anything meaningful about most of the players on that list. If you could, you would know that Biggio is a much better ball player than the likes of Nellie Fox, Phil Rizzuto, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't Rizzuto elected because of his announcing?

Paluka

04-18-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Wasn't Rizzuto elected because of his announcing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His post season record is abysmal, likely due to bad luck ("running bad," "short smaple") and due to having to face Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Steve Avery, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is Steve Avery doing on this list?

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve Avery was one of many Braves pitchers that temporarily made up the "big 4," but now I realize, of course, that he never had to face him. You can replace him with Neagle, Hampton, and others.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 10:39 PM

Edgar Martinez simply did not have enough plate appearances, but Edgar was definitely the better hitter rate-wise.

Vince Young

04-18-2005, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because he was more productive at the plate. 3300 hits.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is due to more PA, nothing more. Martinez had a higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS+(I'm pretty sure), more BB, HR, and almost as many RBI in 3500 less AB.

mmbt0ne

04-18-2005, 10:53 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
His post season record is abysmal, likely due to bad luck ("running bad," "short smaple") and due to having to face Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Steve Avery, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is Steve Avery doing on this list?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you're too young to remember Avery pwning in 91-93.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 11:01 PM

The 17 current hall of fame 2nd basemen...

Rod Carew,
Post-Season: 1969 ALCS, 1970 ALCS, 1979 ALCS, 1982 ALCS
Awards: All-Star (18): 1967-1984; American League Most Valuable Player 1977; AL Rookie of the Year 1967

Eddie Collins
Post-Season: 1910 World Series, 1911 World Series, 1913 World Series, 1914 World Series, 1917 World Series, 1919 World Series
Awards: American League Most Valuable Player in 1914

Bobby Doerr
Post-Season: 1946 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1941-1944, 1946-1951

Johnny Evers
Post-Season: 1906 World Series, 1907 World Series, 1908 World Series, 1914 World Series
Awards: National League Most Valuable Player 1914

Nellie Fox
Post-Season: 1959 World Series
Awards: All-Star (12): 1951-1961, 1963; AL MVP 1959; Gold Glove (3): 1957, 1959-1960

Frankie Frisch
Post-Season: 1921 World Series, 1922 World Series, 1923 World Series, 1924 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1930 World Series, 1931 World Series, 1934 World Series
Awards: All-Star (3): 1933-1935; National League MVP 1931

Charlie Gehringer
Post-Season: 1934 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1940 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1933-1938; American League Most Valuable Player 1937

Billy Herman
Post-Season: 1932 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1938 World Series, 1941 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1934-1943

Rogers Hornsby
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1929 World Series
Awards: National Lague Most Valuable Player 1925, 1929

Nap Lajoie
nothing listed...want to argue this one?

Tony Lazzeri
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1927 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1932 World Series, 1936 World Series, 1937 World Series, 1938 World Series
Awards: All-Star 1933

Bill Mazeroski
Post-Season: 1960 World Series, 1970 NLCS, 1971 NLCS, 1971 World Series, 1972 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (9): 1958-1960, 1962-1964, 1967; Gold Glove (8): 1958, 1960-1961, 1963-1967

Bid McPhee
nothing listed (1800's)

Joe Morgan
Post-Season: 1972 NLCS, 1972 World Series, 1973 NLCS, 1975 NLCS, 1975 World Series, 1976 NLCS, 1976 World Series, 1979 NLCS, 1980 NLCS, 1983 NLCS, 1983 World Series
Awards: All-Star (9): 1966, 1972-1979; MVP 1975-1976; Gold Glove (5) 1973-1977; All-Star Game MVP 1972

Jackie Robinson
Post-Season: 1947 World Series, 1949 World Series, 1952 World Series, 1953 World Series, 1955 World Series, 1956 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1949-1954; National League MVP 1949; Rookie of the Year 1947

Ryne Sandberg
Post-Season: 1984 NLCS, 1989 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (10): 1984-1993; 1984 National League Most Valuable Player; Gold Glove (9): 1983-1991

Red Schoendienst
Post-Season: 1946 World Series, 1957 World Series, 1958 World Series, 1967 World Series, 1968 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1946, 1948-1955, 1957

.
.
.

Craig Biggio
Post-Season: 2004 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (7): 1991, 1992, 1994-1998, [/i]Winner of the 1997 Branch Rickey Award for community service[/i]

I can see how the hall would be jumping all over this one...At least Ryan Sandberg had an MVP...

I don't pretend to know everything about baseball besides the obvious Giants = good, Dogers = bad knowledge that all fans have...

But the one thing I do know is that the Hall of Fame is fking picky and is not about to let Biggio in without either real post-season credentials (WS), or a major award such as a MVP.

Look at the list and prove me wrong.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 17 current hall of fame 2nd basemen...

Rod Carew,
Post-Season: 1969 ALCS, 1970 ALCS, 1979 ALCS, 1982 ALCS
Awards: All-Star (18): 1967-1984; American League Most Valuable Player 1977; AL Rookie of the Year 1967

Eddie Collins
Post-Season: 1910 World Series, 1911 World Series, 1913 World Series, 1914 World Series, 1917 World Series, 1919 World Series
Awards: American League Most Valuable Player in 1914

Bobby Doerr
Post-Season: 1946 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1941-1944, 1946-1951

Johnny Evers
Post-Season: 1906 World Series, 1907 World Series, 1908 World Series, 1914 World Series
Awards: National League Most Valuable Player 1914

Nellie Fox
Post-Season: 1959 World Series
Awards: All-Star (12): 1951-1961, 1963; AL MVP 1959; Gold Glove (3): 1957, 1959-1960

Frankie Frisch
Post-Season: 1921 World Series, 1922 World Series, 1923 World Series, 1924 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1930 World Series, 1931 World Series, 1934 World Series
Awards: All-Star (3): 1933-1935; National League MVP 1931

Charlie Gehringer
Post-Season: 1934 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1940 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1933-1938; American League Most Valuable Player 1937

Billy Herman
Post-Season: 1932 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1938 World Series, 1941 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1934-1943

Rogers Hornsby
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1929 World Series
Awards: National Lague Most Valuable Player 1925, 1929

Nap Lajoie
nothing listed...want to argue this one?

Tony Lazzeri
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1927 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1932 World Series, 1936 World Series, 1937 World Series, 1938 World Series
Awards: All-Star 1933

Bill Mazeroski
Post-Season: 1960 World Series, 1970 NLCS, 1971 NLCS, 1971 World Series, 1972 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (9): 1958-1960, 1962-1964, 1967; Gold Glove (8): 1958, 1960-1961, 1963-1967

Bid McPhee
nothing listed (1800's)

Joe Morgan
Post-Season: 1972 NLCS, 1972 World Series, 1973 NLCS, 1975 NLCS, 1975 World Series, 1976 NLCS, 1976 World Series, 1979 NLCS, 1980 NLCS, 1983 NLCS, 1983 World Series
Awards: All-Star (9): 1966, 1972-1979; MVP 1975-1976; Gold Glove (5) 1973-1977; All-Star Game MVP 1972

Jackie Robinson
Post-Season: 1947 World Series, 1949 World Series, 1952 World Series, 1953 World Series, 1955 World Series, 1956 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1949-1954; National League MVP 1949; Rookie of the Year 1947

Ryne Sandberg
Post-Season: 1984 NLCS, 1989 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (10): 1984-1993; 1984 National League Most Valuable Player; Gold Glove (9): 1983-1991

Red Schoendienst
Post-Season: 1946 World Series, 1957 World Series, 1958 World Series, 1967 World Series, 1968 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1946, 1948-1955, 1957

.
.
.

Craig Biggio
Post-Season: 2004 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (7): 1991, 1992, 1994-1998, [/i]Winner of the 1997 Branch Rickey Award for community service[/i]

I can see how the hall would be jumping all over this one...At least Ryan Sandberg had an MVP...

I don't pretend to know everything about baseball besides the obvious Giants = good, Dogers = bad knowledge that all fans have...

But the one thing I do know is that the Hall of Fame is fking picky and is not about to let Biggio in without either real post-season credentials (WS), or a major award such as a MVP.

Look at the list and prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell does post-season have to do with this? Should we throw Ernie Banks and Ted Williams out of the Hall? Craig Biggio would be a HOFer if he'd never played in a post-season game.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:03 PM

Don Mattingly should be there, because he meant the most to the largest number of fans over the largest period of time.

It's a shame that the Hall of FAME has turned into the Hall of BIG NUMBERS. I'm going to want tell my grandchildren about Don Mattingly, and not the roto-players they'll wind up selecting.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 11:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly should be there, because he meant the most to the largest number of fans over the largest period of time.

It's a shame that the Hall of FAME has turned into the Hall of BIG NUMBERS. I'm going to want tell my grandchildren about Don Mattingly, and not the roto-players they'll wind up selecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the Hall of Your Favorite Players. Sorry.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:05 PM

Martinez's lack of PAs had to do with his late start and his injury troubles. Partially, then, his fault.

bugstud

04-18-2005, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Martinez's lack of PAs had to do with his late start and his injury troubles. Partially, then, his fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he could play defense he'd been up a couple years sooner.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:10 PM

The Hall of Fame is not intended to celebrate the most famous players, but to help the best players become the most famous.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:11 PM

Martinez was an adequately defensive 3B. He just couldn't stay healthy in the field...

pudley4

04-18-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 17 current hall of fame 2nd basemen...

Rod Carew,
Post-Season: 1969 ALCS, 1970 ALCS, 1979 ALCS, 1982 ALCS
Awards: All-Star (18): 1967-1984; American League Most Valuable Player 1977; AL Rookie of the Year 1967

Eddie Collins
Post-Season: 1910 World Series, 1911 World Series, 1913 World Series, 1914 World Series, 1917 World Series, 1919 World Series
Awards: American League Most Valuable Player in 1914

Bobby Doerr
Post-Season: 1946 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1941-1944, 1946-1951

Johnny Evers
Post-Season: 1906 World Series, 1907 World Series, 1908 World Series, 1914 World Series
Awards: National League Most Valuable Player 1914

Nellie Fox
Post-Season: 1959 World Series
Awards: All-Star (12): 1951-1961, 1963; AL MVP 1959; Gold Glove (3): 1957, 1959-1960

Frankie Frisch
Post-Season: 1921 World Series, 1922 World Series, 1923 World Series, 1924 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1930 World Series, 1931 World Series, 1934 World Series
Awards: All-Star (3): 1933-1935; National League MVP 1931

Charlie Gehringer
Post-Season: 1934 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1940 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1933-1938; American League Most Valuable Player 1937

Billy Herman
Post-Season: 1932 World Series, 1935 World Series, 1938 World Series, 1941 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1934-1943

Rogers Hornsby
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1929 World Series
Awards: National Lague Most Valuable Player 1925, 1929

Nap Lajoie
nothing listed...want to argue this one?

Tony Lazzeri
Post-Season: 1926 World Series, 1927 World Series, 1928 World Series, 1932 World Series, 1936 World Series, 1937 World Series, 1938 World Series
Awards: All-Star 1933

Bill Mazeroski
Post-Season: 1960 World Series, 1970 NLCS, 1971 NLCS, 1971 World Series, 1972 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (9): 1958-1960, 1962-1964, 1967; Gold Glove (8): 1958, 1960-1961, 1963-1967

Bid McPhee
nothing listed (1800's)

Joe Morgan
Post-Season: 1972 NLCS, 1972 World Series, 1973 NLCS, 1975 NLCS, 1975 World Series, 1976 NLCS, 1976 World Series, 1979 NLCS, 1980 NLCS, 1983 NLCS, 1983 World Series
Awards: All-Star (9): 1966, 1972-1979; MVP 1975-1976; Gold Glove (5) 1973-1977; All-Star Game MVP 1972

Jackie Robinson
Post-Season: 1947 World Series, 1949 World Series, 1952 World Series, 1953 World Series, 1955 World Series, 1956 World Series
Awards: All-Star (6): 1949-1954; National League MVP 1949; Rookie of the Year 1947

Ryne Sandberg
Post-Season: 1984 NLCS, 1989 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (10): 1984-1993; 1984 National League Most Valuable Player; Gold Glove (9): 1983-1991

Red Schoendienst
Post-Season: 1946 World Series, 1957 World Series, 1958 World Series, 1967 World Series, 1968 World Series
Awards: All-Star (10): 1946, 1948-1955, 1957

.
.
.

Craig Biggio
Post-Season: 2004 NLCS
Awards: All-Star (7): 1991, 1992, 1994-1998, [/i]Winner of the 1997 Branch Rickey Award for community service[/i]

I can see how the hall would be jumping all over this one...At least Ryan Sandberg had an MVP...

I don't pretend to know everything about baseball besides the obvious Giants = good, Dogers = bad knowledge that all fans have...

But the one thing I do know is that the Hall of Fame is fking picky and is not about to let Biggio in without either real post-season credentials (WS), or a major award such as a MVP.

Look at the list and prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if Biggio had the exact same numbers, but had played on the Braves instead of the Astros, he'd be a shoo-in???

Your argument is retarded.

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Martinez's lack of PAs had to do with his late start and his injury troubles. Partially, then, his fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he could play defense he'd been up a couple years sooner.

[/ QUOTE ]both of you are wrong. The stupid front office thought Jim Presley was better. Morons.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:13 PM

I mentioned that, John. Edgar's one of my favorite players and I'd love to see him enshrined.

touchfaith

04-18-2005, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So if Biggio had the exact same numbers, but had played on the Braves instead of the Astros, he'd be a shoo-in???

Your argument is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is a very simple (and obvious to most that follow baseball)....Yes.

He would be a shoe-in if he played for the Braves and had all those World Series on his resume.

Sorry, I don't make the rules. But in case you haven't noticed over the past oh....forever...years, the Hall is very selective...especially when it comes to second basemen.

Again. Look at the list and prove me wrong. I didn't write it. I didn't vote for it. I'm just listing it and giving my opinion.

(and again, for the record, it's Biggio = HAHAHAHAHA for the Hall )

ThaSaltCracka

04-18-2005, 11:16 PM

I wasn't calling you or bugstud a moron either, rather I was calling the M's front office morons.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:21 PM

Funny, because nowhere in the Hall of Fame's guidelines for voting does it mention the postseason.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:24 PM

Actually it is.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The Hall of Fame is not intended to celebrate the most famous players, but to help the best players become the most famous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best in what sense? From the FAQ:

What is the Hall of Fame's mission?

The National Baseball Hall of Fame strives to preserve history, honor excellence and connect generations. Read our mission statement.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:33 PM

Voters are told to take into consideration the player's "total value," and references are made to character. I don't have the exact guidelines on me.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:33 PM

And I reread some of your replies in the thread. When you're 97, have fun reminiscing about Craig Biggio.

Edit: Actually that's a bit unfair, since Biggio was an Astro his whole career. But there will be a slew of multi-team journeymen who make it in the next few years, that no one will care to remember.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:35 PM

OK, I'll reminisce about one of the best second basemen of all time, while you'll think about an overrated first basemen who wasn't anywhere near as good as Craig Biggio.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:38 PM

I edited my statement before your response, because I don't want to slam Biggio. But I disagree with your comparison strongly.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:39 PM

Sorry, wouldn't want to make you find the "guidelines". Are those in Excel format?

Maybe in the coming years we can feed it to a bot.

jesusarenque

04-18-2005, 11:50 PM

Craig Biggio>Don Mattingly. There is no argument to the contrary.

Jack of Arcades

04-18-2005, 11:53 PM

Look, I have plenty of favorite players that don't belong anywhere near the Hall of Fame. I'm not going to be an idiot and say they do.

Don Mattingly had a good run of about 5 seasons but he had no longevity and no extended peak.

Jim Thome, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff, and Rafael Palmeiro all belong before him.

disjunction

04-18-2005, 11:58 PM

Except by taking a VOTE of all the BASEBALL FANS around the country.

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:00 AM

This is going nowhere. My point is that the players who should make the hall are those who have meant the most to the game. Your point is that those who make the hall are those who have contributed the most to the victory of their teams.

ThaSaltCracka

04-19-2005, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Except by taking a VOTE of all the BASEBALL FANS around the country.

[/ QUOTE ]this would be an insanely stupid idea.

kerssens

04-19-2005, 12:01 AM

Who voted for Percival?? If they actually think he belongs, why?

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:02 AM

Yeah, you can't trust the public to pick the most popular players.

ThaSaltCracka

04-19-2005, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, you can't trust the public to pick the most popular players.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah, you can't.

Jack of Arcades

04-19-2005, 12:03 AM

The average person's a [censored] idiot. They're even less informed than sports writers.

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:09 AM

The average person likes saying this. But in this case, by definition, for a public enshrinement, the average person knows who (s)he likes. Same principle as the All Star game.

jesusarenque

04-19-2005, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The average person likes saying this. But in this case, by definition, for a public enshrinement, the average person knows who (s)he likes. Same principle as the All Star game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The HOF is not for the most popular players. It is for the best players. Ty Cobb doesn't exactly have a huge fan club.

ThaSaltCracka

04-19-2005, 12:12 AM

you may or not have noticed, but all-star voting is basically a joke, and really only serves one purpose, and that is to get fans interested in the game.

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The HOF is not for the most popular players. It is for the best players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is where we disagree. Ah, well.

jesusarenque

04-19-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The HOF is not for the most popular players. It is for the best players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is where we disagree. Ah, well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a matter of opinion. You are wrong and I am right.

You: "The capital of Illinois is Chicago."
Me: "The capital of Illinois is Springfield."
You: "Well, I guess we just disagree."

Uh, no.

ThaSaltCracka

04-19-2005, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The HOF is not for the most popular players. It is for the best players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is where we disagree. Ah, well.

[/ QUOTE ]and you are 100% wrong.

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:34 AM

Read my original post. I phrased the exact terms of my argument, which was ignored.

Me: It's about being famous, not having big numbers.
You: But he has lesser numbers. (BTW I have not conceded this)

The word "capital" has a clear definition. You have not provided proof for such a definition for Hall of Famer.

disjunction

04-19-2005, 12:35 AM

Speaking in short, declarative sentences does not prove an argument.

jesusarenque

04-19-2005, 12:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Read my original post. I phrased the exact terms of my argument, which was ignored.

Me: It's about being famous, not having big numbers.
You: But he has lesser numbers. (BTW I have not conceded this)

The word "capital" has a clear definition. You have not provided proof for such a definition for Hall of Famer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the people in the Hall. There are many, many, bad and unpopular people in there. Rogers Hornsby, Ty Cobb, and Ted Williams were all unpopular players/jerks, and they are all in. There have been many, many genuinely nice people who have played MLB, but they aren't in the HOF for being nice guys.

You are flat-out wrong, and there is no point in discussing it further.