Why so much tipping? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

toots

04-18-2005, 03:19 PM

I'd say that my playing poker has had the effect of me increasing my toke rate while playing BJ.

Then again, it's a risk/reward thing. In BJ, you're typically risking X dollars for a 2X "pot," leaving you ahead only X dollars. A buck from that is a lot bigger deal than in poker, where you're risking X dollars in hopes of raking a 3X-4X pot, from which a dollar is less of a big deal.

But, given that I play fairly tight at the poker table, I'm not really toking more than a couple/few times an hour, which by staggering coincidence, is about as often as I toke at the BJ table.

Bulbarainey

04-18-2005, 05:12 PM

i feel the same way a lot of the time, but I just think POKERTRACKER in caps in my head, and i can already see my BB/100 lowering because of tips.... and thus i usually only tip every other hand

Tacjedi

04-18-2005, 07:39 PM

In some casinos poker dealers are working mostly for tips. The get some ridiculously low hourly wage (like $4/hr) and only make a living because of tips. In these same casinos the other dealers (blackjack/craps/roulette) get a more reasonable hourly wage, and the tips are just extra. I guess you could blame the poker dealers for choosing this line of work and say “f***’em” but I am going to continue to tip the dealers for their professionalism and hospitability, not for the size of my pot.

bobbyi

04-18-2005, 09:10 PM

The tips you leave for waiters in restaurants also add up over the course of a year. Does this mean that you never tip them? I guess I'm one of those who will brand you cheap.

gamblore99

04-19-2005, 12:47 AM

Cause it is expected. I consider it part of the cost, just like tipping in a restaurant is considered part of the cost. Tipping is were a lot of their wage comes from.

Luv2DriveTT

04-19-2005, 12:55 AM

Shut up & tip, thats my attitude. Why bother thinking about it, it will only give you a headache. Happy dealers = better "workplace". Its the cost of doing business, a per-pot addition to the vig. Fair enough eh?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

BeantownCaller

04-19-2005, 01:14 AM

Even playing small stakes I tip every pot I win, a couple bucks for a big pot and maybe even a nickel (playing 4/8 or 5/10, lol) if a solid hand holds up for the 1st time in ages.

All in all it doesn't make a big deal, you want the dealer to like you and a happy dealer makes for a better game.

Bluff Daddy

04-19-2005, 01:19 AM

why do you care if the dealer likes you?

RydenStoompala

04-19-2005, 07:48 AM

The real difference is that those who do tip are players and those who do not tip are royal douchebags. Other than that, there's no reason to do it.

The_Tracker

04-19-2005, 09:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I always feel a sense of obligation to tip after winning a pot...but why?

A player would win $200 on one hand, for example, playing blackjack but hardly ever tips but if you win a $50 pot playing poker I feel compelled to leave the dealer $1. Whats the difference? I mean its still a dealer passing out the cards.

I know some will brand me cheap but if you play live as much as I do and factor in the rake and tips over a course of a year it can add up.

Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid freaking stiffs man. You're spreading like a virus.
You funny little $2/4 ESPN & WPT wannabes. You guys kill me.

Heres the profile:
Male
21
White
Trendy
Loud
Drunk
Cheap

Always asking for the cocktail waitress and wearing sunglasses. And now coming to 2+2 to bitch about tokes.

Heres a tip. Go play [censored] video poker. Dont have to tip a soul.

Oh by the way, I deal BJ in Vegas, and players toke ALL the time.

mosch

04-19-2005, 09:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shut up & tip, thats my attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen, bro.

If your hourly rate is being decimated by tips, I suggest you learn how to play poker.

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always feel a sense of obligation to tip after winning a pot...but why?

A player would win $200 on one hand, for example, playing blackjack but hardly ever tips but if you win a $50 pot playing poker I feel compelled to leave the dealer $1. Whats the difference? I mean its still a dealer passing out the cards.

I know some will brand me cheap but if you play live as much as I do and factor in the rake and tips over a course of a year it can add up.

Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid freaking stiffs man. You're spreading like a virus.
You funny little $2/4 ESPN & WPT wannabes. You guys kill me.

Heres the profile:
Male
21
White
Trendy
Loud
Drunk
Cheap

Always asking for the cocktail waitress and wearing sunglasses. And now coming to 2+2 to bitch about tokes.

Heres a tip. Go play [censored] video poker. Dont have to tip a soul.

Oh by the way, I deal BJ in Vegas, and players toke ALL the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know me?

I'm 42 [censored] years old you [censored] [censored]. I started playing this game before most in this forum were born.

Btw, you [censored] dipshit, I have been in the service business all my life having owned/sold 4 restaurants so don't lecture me about tipping you [censored] piece of crap. Try to be a professional and take the good with the bad. That is what I always told my servers because nothing pissed me off more than some douche waitress bitching about a tip.

Don't bother responding because I don't give a [censored] what a loser dealer from Vegas thinks so [censored] off!!!

toots

04-19-2005, 11:26 AM

So, what you're saying is that rather than being the young, wet behind the ears no-nothing kid he accused you of being, you're a doucebag entirely without excuse?

RacersEdge

04-19-2005, 11:32 AM

It does make you think. The problem with the restaurant analogy is that I didn't go to a restaurant 300 times last month.

And I just looked at my first 100 B&M hours at 3/6....$600 in profit, but about $250 in tips...

I think I will raise my threshold on minimum pot size to tip a little...

Hellmouth

04-19-2005, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It does make you think. The problem with the restaurant analogy is that I didn't go to a restaurant 300 times last month.

And I just looked at my first 100 B&M hours at 3/6....$600 in profit, but about $250 in tips...

I think I will raise my threshold on minimum pot size to tip a little...

[/ QUOTE ]

On a $100 meal I will tip $20 for a waitress/waiter who does about 10min of actual work. So why not tip a dealer a buck (even at $1/2 tables) when you win a pot. Yes they get tipped every round but I usually only win a few pots an hour.

I think that it makes sense. If you dont feel right about tipping a lot thats ok. But do tip something.

Greg

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 11:48 AM

Let me explain my reasoning to simpletons like you.

In my original post, I was stating my opinion the reasons why poker players tip every pot compared to blackjack. What is wrong with that? I don't need some idiot dealer from Las Vegas attack me for my opinion.

You would think with all the millions casinos make they would compensate their employees better...why put the onus on the player?

One more thing and then I'm done with this. I play 4/5 times a week so my tips to the dealer amount to roughly $60-$70. Multiply that by 52 weeks and I'm paying $3000-$4000 a year. Am I cheap?....I think not.

rwesty

04-19-2005, 11:52 AM

I haven't played much at B&M, but I've never tipped when playing poker or blackjack. I didn't realize not tipping was looked so down upon. I don't see why they should be tipped after I win a pot, the dealer had nothing to do with what cards came on the turn and river.

Why doesn't the casino pay the dealers more instead of forcing the players into tipping? Is tipping only necessary because it's assumed players will tip and because of this the casino pays its dealers less?

Asufiji2004

04-19-2005, 12:06 PM

To keep the costs of running the casino down. Same with restaurants, they could pay servers 15+/hr., but a burger and fries will cost me 20 bucks, Instead of 10 plus tip. One way or another the patrons pay for the costs. Isn't that pretty much the essence of running a business?

Pocket Trips

04-19-2005, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why do you care if the dealer likes you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always good to have the dealer " on your side" when the dealer is explaining what happened to the floor person in a disputed hand.

Playing at the trop a few months ago a local idiot was yelling at the fish for playing trash hands and winning with them. He was drunk and getting very rude to the point where he was interfering with the flow of the game because people were defending their play to him and it was becoming very annoying to myself and the other social players that were laughing and joking around "gambooling it up." In addition to this on the 2 small pots he did win he stiffed the dealer and I tossed her a chip when he stiffed her because she was handling him about as well as anyone could.

Toward the end of the dealers rotation at my table EVERYONE was just fed up with this a-hole and the follwing situation came up. Heads up against the a-hole I rivered the nut flush when my top pair hit runner runner /images/graemlins/diamond.gif's, When I saw I made my flush I was of course planning on betting it and was picking up chips to do so but had made no foward motion or had not announced "bet" when he tossed chips into the pot and said "$8." Now EVERYONE including the dealer knew I was PLANNING on betting but had not yet done so. So after the dealer said sir please wait your turn, I Said clutching the 8 chips in my hand "check," He angerly waved his hand in my direction and said "$8" Now of course this guy immediately went ballistic when I check-raised him saying I was going to bet blah blah blah. The floorperson was called over and the dealer explained that I had not had a chance to act yet an that even though I was in the process of picking up chips to bet I had not yet done so.

Floorperson rules that my raise stands (woo-hoo /images/graemlins/grin.gif) The guy is so pissed off now he reraised me with the king and we went back and forth 4 times before he just called. I raked in the pot tipping the dealer 2 reds as he got up from the table yelling and screaming at me.

So to sum it up

Tipping dealer on 2 pots she was stiffed on... -$2

4 extra big bets on the river.... +$36
Having the dealer on your side a questionable situation .... priceless

AngusThermopyle

04-19-2005, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why do you care if the dealer likes you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always good to have the dealer " on your side" when the dealer is explaining what happened to the floor person in a disputed hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I read your description of the incident and it seemed that the dealer did nothing but tell the truth. Did I miss something?

Pocket Trips

04-19-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why do you care if the dealer likes you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always good to have the dealer " on your side" when the dealer is explaining what happened to the floor person in a disputed hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I read your description of the incident and it seemed that the dealer did nothing but tell the truth. Did I miss something?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you did...Since there are no "race track" lines on AC tables many times it can be a judgement call on whether or not my motion of picking up chips could be considered "action." When I check-raised the guy the dealer gave me a look that basically said well technically you shouldn't be able to do that but since this guy is an a-hole I will let it slide.

AngusThermopyle

04-19-2005, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I check-raised the guy the dealer gave me a look that basically said well technically you shouldn't be able to do that but since this guy is an a-hole I will let it slide.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case, then the dealer is the a-hole.

pokermama

04-19-2005, 12:58 PM

I deal poker in the local indian casino.. we just opened up last week.. very interesting observation as to the tipping.. Our State just legalized Poker as a form of gambling... During my first week, I overheard players saying.. OH we are supposed to tip the dealer??

Well, I for one am grateful for the tips.. they assure me I am serving you well... I try to keep the action going and let you know when to act..

Blackjack dealers they turn over cards, have automatic shufflers and only have to count to 2.5 of your bet..

This is what I have to do while in the box.. I have to count my til.. if it is off, I have to pay it out of my pocket... then I have to ensure that all the cards are correct.. no defects or marks... you want a fair game right?

I shuffle and deal.. then I have to keep the action going because the house wants us to deal 20 hands an hour... (this is why I am saying... 10 to you sir, or Action is on you sir).... I then have to keep track of who is in or out... so I can tell the man at the end of the table how many players are in.. (I guess he can't count the cards that are in front of the players)

Then I have to figure the rake, if I don't get the right amount.. look out... write up... I take the rake and then deal 4th street... go through the betting and on.. then after I deal the river I have to count my stub down... at least twice per down...okay.. now I have to read the cards, determine the winner and award the pot and, if split, stack em up and get them to you..

then I reshuffle and do it again..

I am in the box for about 30 minutes then up chip running and picking up chip trays, drink holders, etc... then back in the box for another 30.. if lucky I might get 4 times in the box a night...

Yeah the tips are what we are working for.. I thank you for them.. it is disheartening to push a 500.00 pot on the no limit table to a man who has over 1,000.00 on the table and he never tips.. not one dollar...

It also breaks my heart when the guy who just hit the ATM machine for the 5th time is tipping me 2 bucks, when I know he is on tilt and can use it..

To break it down for you.. I get $5.50 an hour.. plus the tips.. I have to turn them in at night and pay taxes on them as well... I keep all my own tips... the poker dealers do not pool them like the Blackjack..

So a good rule is.. if you like the service, if you win a pot... get more back than you put in.. tip us.. if you don't get more back, don't worry.. I understand that as a poker player... IF you don't like the dealer, don't tip.. they won't stay if they don't make the tips... but if you have some good dealers and you want them to stay, you are happy to see them come to your table.. tips are appreciated!!!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 01:05 PM

Very nice post.
I'm sure you are a fine dealer and good luck at your new job.

Al_Capone_Junior

04-19-2005, 01:56 PM

Just friggin' tip already and don't add up how much is costs you. Consider it a necessary part of the game. Tipping is completely separate from the rake anyway, so don't lump them in the same category.

The bottom line is don't be a friggin' stiff, that's "bad."

al

chesspain

04-19-2005, 02:00 PM

tdp

04-19-2005, 02:13 PM

When you go out to eat,don't you figure in tipping as part of the cost of dining?I certainly do.If I can't afford to tip,I can't afford to eat out period.Anyone who goes to a restaurant with no intent of tipping is a scumbag who should stay home and eat canned soup.Anyone who goes to a cardroom with no intent of tipping should stay home and play on the net.
Service professionals are paid very little to be there and take care of you,but they are being paid just to be there,whether there are customers or not.They are there to work for you and if they do a good job,take care of them.If you aren't willing to do that,stay home until you grow up.

toots

04-19-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why doesn't the casino pay the dealers more instead of forcing the players into tipping?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know, but the fact is that they don't. I'd be happy to entertain the question, and in fact, I'm sure you could make a reasonable argument that the casinos should be paying the dealers well, instead of relying on the players to tip.

But that argument doesn't change the reality of the situation one whit. They don't pay the dealers, and the only way the dealer's going to make a living wage is by collecting tokes. That's just the way it is, and you aren't going to fix that by failing to pay the dealer their due share.

All you're going to do is deprive a dealer of some income and come off as an excuse-free douchebag.

If you've got a complaint with the way the money flow works, take it out on the casino, not the dealer. He probably has the least control over these issues of anyone.

goodguy_1

04-19-2005, 02:23 PM

I thought ASU banned Fiji's forever?They banned Fiji's first then ThetaDelts-this was way back in late 1980's.

Al_Capone_Junior

04-19-2005, 02:23 PM

You're alright man!

BTW I tip constantly when playing anything, blackjack, craps, paigow, old maid, canasta, pinochle, candy land, eels and escalators....

Seriously, when I am out playing, particularly when Photoc an' nem and me go out gamblin' and drinkin', we tip a lot, AND WE ALWAYS GET TREATED LIKE FRIGGIN' KINGS. Many times we get offered comps without asking, and virtually every time our actual play in no way warrants any kind of comp at all (from the house's monetary point of view). The pit bosses know however who the tokers are, and they usually return the favor.

Here's my fav part of your post tho...

[ QUOTE ]
You funny little $2/4 ESPN & WPT wannabes. You guys kill me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your profile of the non-tipping internet punks is spot on accurate.

Every single day I have to say it over and over...

IT'S 2-4, NOT THE WORLD POKER TOUR!

al

p.s. anytime you want to go gamblin' and drinkin' gimme a buzz

tdp

04-19-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Many times we get offered comps without asking, and virtually every time our actual play in no way warrants any kind of comp at all (from the house's monetary point of view). The pit bosses know however who the tokers are, and they usually return the favor.

[/ QUOTE ]
I din't even think of this.At the room I play at,I always get my meal comped even if I just sat down.You are supposed to play three hours of cash games first and I usually only play tourneys which don't count for comps.Tourney dealers around here seem to get stiffed the worst.
When I'm at a table,I look at it as the dealer is working for me,not the casino.If they do a good job I pay them well.Simple enough.

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just friggin' tip already and don't add up how much is costs you. Consider it a necessary part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I don't why I have do defend my position on this. When I spend roughly $3000 a year tipping dealers I have to ask myself if this over the top. If I played once a month I wouldn't have posted the topic.

Part of the game? I can think of 3000 reasons its not.

toots

04-19-2005, 02:42 PM

Ok, so the casino

A) Decides to pay the dealers well enough that they don't need tokes

B) Raise the rake enough so that nearly every pot has a dollar more rake than they did yesterday.

All better now?

JoeC

04-19-2005, 02:59 PM

Actually, yes... do you see why?

Al_Capone_Junior

04-19-2005, 03:08 PM

You brought it up, why did you think you wouldn't have to defend your position here?

Even very tight, very money conscious players tip, and do quite well, even with their tipping. So if you have to defend yourself after posting a "I think I'll try to rationalize being a stiff" thread, then too friggin' bad for you hoss. Somebody call a whaaaaaaambulance!

al

Pocket Trips

04-19-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just friggin' tip already and don't add up how much is costs you. Consider it a necessary part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I don't why I have do defend my position on this. When I spend roughly $3000 a year tipping dealers I have to ask myself if this over the top. If I played once a month I wouldn't have posted the topic.

Part of the game? I can think of 3000 reasons its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok so $3,000 a year for 3,000 pots won or if you occasionally tip $2 maybe its 2,600 pots... Even if you are playing 2/4, and the average pot is maybe a $20 profit not counting the money you put into it, that means you won an average of $60,000 in pots in one year.

You are giving up 5% of your profits for a service rendered.

The way I see it one of 2 things is happening here. Either you are taking 2/4 poker WAY TOO SERIOUSLY or if you do happen to be a higher limit player trying to either make a living at the game or add to your income and are bitching about lost profits. In which case the $1 per pot tip is probably less than 3% of your profits and you are just a tightwad in general like most of the degenerate gamblers beaten down by the swings of the game and life in general who are always berating younger players who take "their" pots. Do you also blame the dealer for your bad beats?

If you are playing 2/4 you have NO RIGHT to be bitching about how the tokes are eating into your profits because you should not be playing 2/4 expecting to make a serious profit from it. 2/4 Is for social players who are either just there to have fun or to learn the game before moving up. If you are trying to make money playing poker move up to a limit where the rake and tokes are not such a high percentage of the pot or stop bitching...

If the second scenario describes you better there is an easy solution..... it is 1-800-GAMBLER

(edited for spelling)

junkmail3

04-19-2005, 03:34 PM

The better you tip, the better cards you get. There are pleny of posts in this forum to back that up.

RacersEdge

04-19-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I then have to keep track of who is in or out... so I can tell the man at the end of the table how many players are in.. (I guess he can't count the cards that are in front of the players)

[/ QUOTE ]

This bothered me some. Before I played, I remember not understanding a post where someone said they couldn't tell if the guy beside them had cards or not. But after playing, I've had this happen a lot. With the way people hide cards with their hands and/or chips, seeing how many players are in the hand is not always easy. And don't forsget when you are in the 1 seat, you can't even tell if there is a person in the 10 seat and vice versa. The only person who has a clear view of all the players' cards is the dealer...

The Goober

04-19-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I spend roughly $3000 a year tipping...

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't get it. Its not about you - its about the dealer making a fair wage. The tips are part of the dealer's salary, period. Just because this particular part of their compensation relies on this odd form of "on your honor" payment doesn't make it any less wrong to deny it to them.

What you are saying basically comes down to saying this:

"I love biscotti and I eat 5 a day from my local coffee shop. Gee, I must spend $3k a year on biscotti - that's too much. Since the biscotti is close to the door and no one ever watches them, I should just start stealing my biscotti, since its costing me so much. Besides, they overcharge on the coffee and they can afford it."

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody call a whaaaaaaambulance!

[/ QUOTE ]

Grow up.

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it one of 2 things is happening here. Either you are taking 2/4 poker WAY TOO SERIOUSLY or if you do happen to be a higher limit player trying to either make a living at the game or add to your income and are bitching about lost profits. In which case the $1 per pot tip is probably less than 3% of your profits and you are just a tightwad in general like most of the degenerate gamblers beaten down by the swings of the game and life in general who are always berating younger players who take "their" pots. Do you also blame the dealer for your bad beats?

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is getting funnier by the post.
I am not a 2/4 player...fact is I wouldn't waste my time.
I play to make money and paying $3000 a year for tips is -EV.

Maybe when you reach my level you might understand. Until then STFU.

Pocket Trips

04-19-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Somebody call a whaaaaaaambulance!

[/ QUOTE ]

Grow up.

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it one of 2 things is happening here. Either you are taking 2/4 poker WAY TOO SERIOUSLY or if you do happen to be a higher limit player trying to either make a living at the game or add to your income and are bitching about lost profits. In which case the $1 per pot tip is probably less than 3% of your profits and you are just a tightwad in general like most of the degenerate gamblers beaten down by the swings of the game and life in general who are always berating younger players who take "their" pots. Do you also blame the dealer for your bad beats?

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is getting funnier by the post.
I am not a 2/4 player...fact is I wouldn't waste my time.
I play to make money and paying $3000 a year for tips is -EV.

Maybe when you reach my level you might understand. Until then STFU.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you make such a big friggen deal about probably less than 1% of your earning just proves my point that you are one of those beligerant tightwads who have had the life sucked out them by the game....

my point in using 2/4 as an example was that $1 per pot EVEN AT THE SMALLEST LIMITS POSSIBLE is such a small amount that the fact that you would bitch about losing it is ridiculous.

Until you learn how to read and understand concepts like this STFU

mosch

04-19-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Do you know me?

I'm 42 [censored] years old you [censored] [censored]. I started playing this game before most in this forum were born.

Btw, you [censored] dipshit, I have been in the service business all my life having owned/sold 4 restaurants so don't lecture me about tipping you [censored] piece of crap. Try to be a professional and take the good with the bad. That is what I always told my servers because nothing pissed me off more than some douche waitress bitching about a tip.

Don't bother responding because I don't give a [censored] what a loser dealer from Vegas thinks so [censored] off!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you almost die in a fire.

The_Tracker

04-19-2005, 04:48 PM

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Or. No tokes? Fine. Now my interest in dealing a clean, legit game has also dropped. Why do I care if you get mad? I don't need your toke.

Getting the picture?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not a professional.
I think its time for you to look for a new career.

chesspain

04-19-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or. No tokes? Fine. Now my interest in dealing a clean, legit game has also dropped. Why do I care if you get mad? I don't need your toke.

Getting the picture?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not a professional.
I think its time for you to look for a new career.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have actually owned four restaurants, as you claimed, did you stop to think about how difficult it would have been to run these establishments if a significant percentage of your customers tended to stiff the waitstaff?

The_Tracker

04-19-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or. No tokes? Fine. Now my interest in dealing a clean, legit game has also dropped. Why do I care if you get mad? I don't need your toke.

Getting the picture?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not a professional.
I think its time for you to look for a new career.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a point here that you are just not getting.

Do you think I was refering to myself in the post? LOL.

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you have actually owned four restaurants, as you claimed, did you stop to think about how difficult it would have been to run these establishments if a significant percentage of your customers tended to stiff the waitstaff?

[/ QUOTE ]

If my restaurants made the money casinos make I would have paid them accordingly.

Randy_Refeld

04-19-2005, 05:16 PM

If you don't want to tip, don't. Nobody is making you tip. If you are happy receiving a service for free that you know you are suppsoed to be paying for then by all means don't tip. Of course if enough people don't tip the dealers that can do something else will leave (I am willing to wager in all rooms in the country that dealers that have options outside of poker are also the best ones), and you will be stuck with dealers that don't value their own labor more than the min wage they receive. So to save your $1 a hand tipping you just cut the number of hands dealt by about 20-30% (conservative numbers); still think tipping is -EV?

BeantownCaller

04-19-2005, 05:22 PM

OMGOSH if you paid $3000 in tips you must have paid $9000 in rake, if you were playing in your own little fantasy world you could have bought a nice chevy lumina or some MINT starwars merchandise!

When you paid your waitresses and set your menu prices you were accounting for the ~15% gratuity the customer was likely to leave at the end of every meal. If they didn't tip you'd have to do something different, probably raise the price of food and raise your employee's wages. But you didn't have to do that. Because tipping is expected. This is exactly why dealers get minimum wage but still take home a reasonable amount of money, because 8/10 people at the table are reasonable and understand this, and don't get sour and complain on the internet when they have to toss the dealer a white chip.

AKQJ10

04-19-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I will raise my threshold on minimum pot size to tip a little...

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your cardroom's cage sell rolls of half dollars (or 50c chips)? I toke them all the time when playing Foxwoods $2/4 hold em and $1-3 stud. At 2/4 90% of the players toke a dollar a pot, which is usually just too much, but at $1-3 stud 50 cents is the going rate.

If you can't get halves, use two quarters; I've been known to do that occasionally.

AKQJ10

04-19-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No tokes? The house is paying me $20 an hour to deal. Fine. Down to 10 hands an hour. What the hell do I care. I am going to stare at the huge clevage in seat 3 instead of move the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding, you've just described Foxwoods! (Dealers there pool tokes, along with dealers of all other table games; rumor is Mohegan's reopened poker room will be the same.)

In fairness, I've had some good dealers there -- and wondered why they didn't move to AC or Out West. (Yeah, yeah, I everyone has the usual family and school issues....)

RacersEdge

04-19-2005, 05:45 PM

Not a bad idea, but there is so much stuff to keep up with when you play - chips, card swiping, comps, etc, that having to deal with getting a second "chip" type would be too much. I'm think of just tipping maybe 2/3 pots I currently tip.

toots

04-19-2005, 05:48 PM

Heck, if I'm playing $2/4, I'm playing for entertainment and not to make money. If I'm ahead, might as well give it to the dealer as anyone else at the table.

Even at Foxwoods.

MonkeeMan

04-19-2005, 05:51 PM

If you <ul type="square"> don't care about treating people as you would like to be treated have no conscience don't mind being thought of as an a-hole [/list] then don't tip if you don't want to.

Al_Capone_Junior

04-19-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If my restaurants made the money casinos make I would have paid them accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing you obviously fail to realize here is that a poker room doesn't really make much money for a casino at all, at least not when compared to ANYTHING else in the casino. Poker tables require a floorperson to supervise, a dealer, a waitress, and other support staff like list attendants and chip runners. Now add in drinks, comps, television, and whatever else the room might offer as additional costs. Then, after all this, the table is barely bringing in enough to make a fair profit after paying all that overhead. ANY casino would MUCH rather have slot machines than poker tables. Now, make these poker tables profitable enough to cover the costs of paying the dealers what they make now, but all from the casino with no tips, and you'll simply have to raise the rake, which will COST YOU THE SAME AMOUNT ANYWAY, OR MAYBE MORE.

The problem you are facing here is that you're taking a VERY unpopular stance, and failing to provide any kind of even barely adequate defense. Trust me, I am an academic kind of person, if you CONVINCE ME, I WILL change my position on a subject. Thusfar you haven't even budged me one iota, and I doubt you've convinced anyone else either, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so much FLAK.

Just give it up, don't be a friggin' stiff, and TIP ALREADY.
So OK, apparently you claim you DO tip, so why bother to keep trying to (rather unsuccessfully) convince everyone else why tipping is somehow bad?

if you cant beat em join em.

al

Toonces

04-19-2005, 06:42 PM

I think that to answer your question without being rude, the difference between tipping in Poker vs. BJ or craps, is that in all of the house games, is that the casino is basically offering you a way to lose your money. It's taking a wager that according to the math you will lose, and see if the entertainment value is enough to get you to bite.

As for poker, it seems that the casino is truly providing a service that, in this case, only casinos are allowed legally to do. Anyone skilled enough to beat the rake is fully free to do so (not true at the BJ tables). If it wasn't for the casino, the fish would never find you and give you their money. They provide a service and expect a flat fee. Part of that fee is an expected gratuity. As mentioned earlier, the "expected gratuity" system is a realistic method for ensuring that dealers work hard and are friendly. The alternative to "expected gratuity" is adding $1 to rake earmarked for dealers, similar to tournaments. It's not an awful idea, but it has it's weaknesses.

The weakness of the current system is that players who do not feel obligated to tip can do so and are subsidized by those who do tip. And that's why there's probably a lot of anger on this thread, and probably has to do with why we feel "obligated" to tip.

ismisus

04-19-2005, 07:34 PM

I tip, but just because I don't want to look like an ass in front of people. I just count tip as part of rake. I could care less about the dealer, it was his choice to take this job, and I don't want to hear any whining from the dealer.

Dealers should be happy that they get minimum wage. Their real wage should be lower. The amount of people who are willing to deal at a low wage and the amount of positions open equal to a low wage. Thats just basic rules of economics, the government is actually forcing casinos to pay more (minimum wage).

[ QUOTE ]
It also breaks my heart when the guy who just hit the ATM machine for the 5th time is tipping me 2 bucks, when I know he is on tilt and can use it..

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why he has to hit an ATM machine is because he is simply an idiot. He keeps losing, because he's just dumb. Dumb for not reading poker books, dumb for not paying attention to odds, dumb for making money-losing decisions just for the thrill of it, or dumb for drinking. He's dumb for not bringing his whole roll to the casino. He's dumb for tipping.

How come no one tips Burger King people, they get crappy wages. No one tips janitors, they have to work long hours at a low wages with crappy conditions at crappy hours. No one tips teachers. If I sell my house on eBay for a million dollars, I am not going to tip them a dollar. Just because I "won" a million dollar pot, that doesn't mean Ebay should get more than the rake. Its just a transfer of money, and dealers should not be bribed.

SpaceAce

04-19-2005, 08:01 PM

SpaceAce

04-19-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Grow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's rich. Have you read your own posts?

[ QUOTE ]

This thread is getting funnier by the post.
I am not a 2/4 player...fact is I wouldn't waste my time.
I play to make money and paying $3000 a year for tips is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whereas not tipping, so no one will ever take the job of dealer and there will be no games for you to play, is a big +EV move.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe when you reach my level you might understand. Until then STFU.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, now I a starting to doubt that his poster is for real. This has troll written all over it.

SpaceAce

SpaceAce

04-19-2005, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I tip, but just because I don't want to look like an ass in front of people. I just count tip as part of rake. I could care less about the dealer, it was his choice to take this job, and I don't want to hear any whining from the dealer.

Dealers should be happy that they get minimum wage. Their real wage should be lower. The amount of people who are willing to deal at a low wage and the amount of positions open equal to a low wage. Thats just basic rules of economics, the government is actually forcing casinos to pay more (minimum wage).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good thing you're only claiming to be a poker genius.

SpaceAce

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 08:33 PM

Listen fool, I was just reacting to the unprovoked attack from the Vegas dealer. What did you expect me to do? In case you missed it, this was his rant.

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid freaking stiffs man. You're spreading like a virus.
You funny little $2/4 ESPN & WPT wannabes. You guys kill me.

Heres the profile:
Male
21
White
Trendy
Loud
Drunk
Cheap

Always asking for the cocktail waitress and wearing sunglasses. And now coming to 2+2 to bitch about tokes.

Heres a tip. Go play [censored] video poker. Dont have to tip a soul.

Oh by the way, I deal BJ in Vegas, and players toke ALL the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

callydrias

04-19-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tip, but just because I don't want to look like an ass in front of people. I just count tip as part of rake. I could care less about the dealer, it was his choice to take this job, and I don't want to hear any whining from the dealer.

Dealers should be happy that they get minimum wage. Their real wage should be lower. The amount of people who are willing to deal at a low wage and the amount of positions open equal to a low wage. Thats just basic rules of economics, the government is actually forcing casinos to pay more (minimum wage).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good thing you're only claiming to be a poker genius.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

Took the words out of my mouth.

toots

04-19-2005, 08:42 PM

Hey, maybe this Zoltri thing is just another Lapore/Smoothcall alter ego.

CCx

04-19-2005, 08:46 PM

a few random thoughts:

- hey lookie, another tipping thread in the B&M forum!
- zoltri plays higher limits than any of you - fear him, you'll understand when you all can play that high
- hey lookie, another tipping thread in the B&M forum!

that is all, carry on

SpaceAce

04-19-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Listen fool, I was just reacting to the unprovoked attack from the Vegas dealer. What did you expect me to do? In case you missed it, this was his rant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the entire thread top to bottom. I don't know either of you and I am not a dealer so I don't have a reason to take one side over the other. Having read every post and absorbed the available information, I have come to the conclusion that you're the asshole, here.

SpaceAce

Chipr777

04-19-2005, 09:05 PM

Amen

Chipr777

04-19-2005, 09:24 PM

I've also read this entire thread. I tried my best to refrain. I play 10-20 and 20-40 regularly. $1 a pot at "our" level doesn't hurt near as bad as $1 a pot at 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 ect. Tipping in poker is a part of life. Tip or don't. I could care less what you do. Let me toss this scenario out at you. There are 2 hotel rooms left for the night at the casino your playing in. The floor knows your a total stiff because, they just know those things. Your getting tired and ask for a room. Do you think your getting one of those rooms? If you do your sorely mistaken. You want to go eat? Been playing 12 hours but they already comped you once 10 hours ago? Buy your own dinner. You were already comped once today. You get up from the table to go eat. The dealer, that you've been stiffing all day happens to throw an extra button out there for you. You come back to find someone in your seat. Bottom of the list buddy. Getting the picture now? Heaven forbid you don't protect your cards in 1 or 10 seat. Ohhh, sorry sir. I thought you mucked those. ooooops. Shall I go on? I can think of quite a few more. $1 a pot going to kill you? I can think of quite a few ways it sure can help.

AngusThermopyle

04-19-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer, that you've been stiffing all day happens to throw an extra button out there for you. You come back to find someone in your seat. Bottom of the list buddy. Getting the picture now? Heaven forbid you don't protect your cards in 1 or 10 seat. Ohhh, sorry sir. I thought you mucked those. ooooops. .

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfectly clear. Perfectly.

Zoltri

04-19-2005, 10:53 PM

Pay $3000 a year in tips to dealers and then come and talk to me. At that amount of money I am certainly no stiff.

You once a month B&M players make me laugh. Its so easy to sit back and criticize me for questioning something that should be the richer casinos responsibility.

BeantownCaller

04-19-2005, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pay $3000 a year in tips to dealers and then come and talk to me. At that amount of money I am certainly no stiff.

You once a month B&M players make me laugh. Its so easy to sit back and criticize me for questioning something that should be the richer casinos responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are downright silly.

No one is making you play 4 times a week. Play 6 days a week online and 1 day a week in real life if the tipping really bothers you.

If you play more you'll have to tip more, no [censored]! It's all relative, you're there for an X amount of hours a week and make an average of X dollars an hour after rake and tips. Although I'd venture a guess I make more BB/hour cuz I'm friendly and people don't despise me within 15 minutes of me sitting at the table.

If you complained about how much gas costed these days and how much it costs you to fill up your tank to drive to the casino, would those of us who only play once a week not have a right to comment cuz you drive back and forth 4 times a week?

Moral of the story: YOU ARE A CLOWN

pokermama

04-20-2005, 12:16 AM

OH and I forgot to mention.. Out of OUR tips.. we have to give 10% off the top to the floor men.. every night.. so that buck you tip us is really .90 and then taxes out of that..

Just FYI /images/graemlins/grin.gif

juanez

04-20-2005, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe when you reach my level you might understand. Until then STFU.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a douche.

juanez

04-20-2005, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now, make these poker tables profitable enough to cover the costs of paying the dealers what they make now, but all from the casino with no tips, and you'll simply have to raise the rake, which will COST YOU THE SAME AMOUNT ANYWAY, OR MAYBE MORE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No sh*t. Imagine the posts here if the rake suddely doubled and there was big sign that read "PLEASE DON'T TIP THE DEALERS OR ANY CASINO STAFF".

mackthefork

04-20-2005, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After all, no one knows more about the plight of people working for $2/hour plus tips than someone who buys and sells restaurants like they were tennis shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, nice comeback.

Mack

juanez

04-20-2005, 06:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 42 [censored] years old you [censored] [censored]. I started playing this game before most in this forum were born.

Btw, you [censored] dipshit, I have been in the service business all my life having owned/sold 4 restaurants so don't lecture me about tipping you [censored] piece of crap. Try to be a professional and take the good with the bad. That is what I always told my servers because nothing pissed me off more than some douche waitress bitching about a tip.

Don't bother responding because I don't give a [censored] what a loser dealer from Vegas thinks so [censored] off!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

42 going on 15?

Photoc

04-20-2005, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers should be happy that they get minimum wage. Their real wage should be lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir are a moron. You're probably the same type that bitches when he doesn't get his precious 5% raise every year from your job. Most dealers dont get a "cost of living" or " you kissed enough corporate ass" raise. I actually take the time to learn the names of my regular players, not the stiff ones, but the nice ones. I'm not going to bend over backwards for a stiff, but I will for a nice player. Just using a name is huge in customer service, but if you want assholes dealing to you, come find me, I can be one. My boss will verify it for you, lol. I like to be nice, I like to give good service, but no reason to say that you hate dealers and yada yada.

I'm sorry if some blackjack dealer took all your money one night and you're one of those guys that are soley against dealers, but [censored] happens, thats casinos for ya. You are going to pay rake no matter what as well.

Bottom line:
If you hate dealers, tipping, 35 hands per hour, do us all a favor and go back to the internet. Simple as that. Enough of the whining and complaining, just do it. We wont miss you.

tylerdurden

04-20-2005, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its so easy to sit back and criticize me for questioning something that should be the richer casinos responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just shown you don't know anything about economics. You're like those dumb morons on the Donahue show that say "why does the TAXPAYER have to pay for everything? Why can't the GOVERNMENT pay for it!??!"

Zoltri

04-20-2005, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You've just shown you don't know anything about economics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in business as a poker player making money so your economics statement is not relative to me.

I am curious since we have a couple dealers here what you guys make. Its obviously very personal information so there is certainly no obligation to divulge. Its just that everyone and his mother is feeling bad for you guys.

Please enlighten us with your plight.

Maudie

04-20-2005, 10:45 AM

I played at the poker room where you are dealing last Friday - (am estatic we have Okie poker now) I was impressed with the professionalism of the dealers at my 3/6 table. A few of the kids (frist-timers) who sat didn't have a clue about tipping (let alone how to play) and one player was good about saying "don't forget your dealer"...

I've had mixed feelings about tipping, but have come to appreciate the difference between a dealer who is friendly, not afraid to enforce rules, efficient and able to keep the game moving and one who is an automaton and let's infractions slide.

I will tip - or not - based on things like that, tipping is part of the cost of my entertainment for the eve...

tylerdurden

04-20-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You've just shown you don't know anything about economics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in business as a poker player making money so your economics statement is not relative to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You mean you don't need to know anything about economics because you're a bigshot professional poker player? Or are you implying that the fact that you're a bigshot professional poker player automatically proves that you actually know something significant about economics?

StevieG

04-20-2005, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am curious since we have a couple dealers here what you guys make. Its obviously very personal information so there is certainly no obligation to divulge. Its just that everyone and his mother is feeling bad for you guys.

Please enlighten us with your plight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Changing tactics now? You cannot justify stiffing based on the impact on your costs, so now you want to determine that your tip makes a minimal impact on a dealer's take home pay?

What number would be too much for you? $60,000? $50,000? $40,000?

Personally, I'd be happy to hear that good dealers (those that run smooth, error free games with high numbers of hands per hour, and keep casual players happy) are making 6 figures.

I want good dealers able to perform at that level and therefore I want to see good compensation for them. That means I tip, and I will tip extra when dealers do a good job. It also means I expect you to keep up your end.

It's the same reason I want to read articles about strippers without a high school education making $150,000 in a year. And why I don't want to see some stiff nursing a beer one table distance from the stage, never getting a lap dance, and never approaching the stage to tip.

Pocket Trips

04-20-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am curious since we have a couple dealers here what you guys make. Its obviously very personal information so there is certainly no obligation to divulge. Its just that everyone and his mother is feeling bad for you guys.

Please enlighten us with your plight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Changing tactics now? You cannot justify stiffing based on the impact on your costs, so now you want to determine that your tip makes a minimal impact on a dealer's take home pay?

What number would be too much for you? $60,000? $50,000? $40,000?

Personally, I'd be happy to hear that good dealers (those that run smooth, error free games with high numbers of hands per hour, and keep casual players happy) are making 6 figures.

I want good dealers able to perform at that level and therefore I want to see good compensation for them. That means I tip, and I will tip extra when dealers do a good job. It also means I expect you to keep up your end.

It's the same reason I want to read articles about strippers without a high school education making $150,000 in a year. And why I don't want to see some stiff nursing a beer one table distance from the stage, never getting a lap dance, and never approaching the stage to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

did he just equate dealing poker to stripping?

toots

04-20-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Changing tactics now? You cannot justify stiffing based on the impact on your costs, so now you want to determine that your tip makes a minimal impact on a dealer's take home pay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The inevitable response to a winning argument is the characteristic scraping sound of the target being moved.

StevieG

04-20-2005, 08:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

did he just equate dealing poker to stripping?

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared, not equated.

And in the sense that it is a service position where attracting and retaining better candidates makes a difference in EV.

smoore

04-20-2005, 10:05 PM

I'll go ahead and equate dealing cards to stripping!

"Oh yeah, that's how daddy likes it... roll that ace on the river now... OH YEAH! here baby, open up your tokebox a little so I can get this chip in there... you're a little tokewhore, aren't you... aren't you? yeah baybee!"

just kidding, dealers... I appreciate and value the good ones. I think the OP is a candidate for the new "online style" (for lack of a better term) tables I've heard about without dealers, cards or chips.

kodonnell

05-17-2005, 01:22 PM

I just have to say that the owners of service companies (restaurants, casinos, hotels) have it made. They can justify underpaying their employees because they receive tips.

Effectively, when you tip, your tip is indirectly going to the owner of the establishment, not the person you are tipping. You are simply making up for what the owner does not provide the employee (a fair wage). Society as a whole has been duped into this scam.

Who determines what service staff I am supposed to tip? Is there a manual somewhere I am supposed to read? Do I tip my garbage man? My mailman? What about my grocer or butcher who helps me select the best veggies or meat? And, for that matter, I provide a service for the company I work for.....where are my tips!!!

That being said, I am just going to accept it as for what it really is, a scam, and continue to tip my wait staff, my pizza delivery person, my card dealers (as opposed to my drug dealers), and the guy with the funny hat in front of the hotel holding the door open for me. Why do I pay this guy again?...oh yea, 'cause he doesn't make a good wage and needs my money more than I do....and hell, opening a door is a tough job.

meow_meow

05-17-2005, 02:26 PM

Wow, I actually made it through this entire thread.

Started off actually agreeing with OP, now not so sure. Seems like he's been goaded into making an ass of himself though.

Do dealers need tips to make a living wage? Yes
Should casinos actually pay a living wage instead? Yes

When I was in my mid twenties (6-7 years ago) I used to play everyday at a small indian casino near toronto that had 4-6 tables - very limited, just 2-5, 5-10 and 10-20 LHE. Most players tipped a buck every pot. The ones who didn't were, for the most part, every-day regulars, mostly retirees, rather than young white males as an earlier poster had suggested.

Of course the dealers deserve to make a living wage, but shouldn't the grinders be able to as well? I was playing mostly 5-10 then (internet poker was just getting started), and lucky if I was making 2BB/hr over the astronomical rake (5% to $7.50 cap). Assuming an average 3 pots won per hour, toking a dollar a pot set me back 15% of my profit (not 5% at 2/4 as an earlier poster incorrectly suggested - worst analysis ever!).

Final note, I find the suggestion that dealers should/do show preference to those who toke generously, to the extent of bending the rules in their favour, simply abhorrent.

tylerdurden

05-17-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just have to say that the owners of service companies (restaurants, casinos, hotels) have it made. They can justify underpaying their employees because they receive tips.

Effectively, when you tip, your tip is indirectly going to the owner of the establishment, not the person you are tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not looking at the entire picture. Do you think that prices would be the same if the restaurant paid waiters the equivelent of what they make in tips? They're just getting "free money" since they don't have to pay wages?

kodonnell

05-17-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that prices would be the same if the restaurant paid waiters the equivelent of what they make in tips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, yea. The prices are set by supply/demand...where is the restaurant guy who posted above?...prices are set at the maximum people will pay for the food/service, not based on how much the staff is paid. If the price for food was based on the wages of the staff, you could also say that waiters in very expensive restaurants get paid proportianately more than less expensive restaurants. While that statement may be slightly true, restaurant owners will set prices based on what they can charge, not the wages paid. The difference goes into their pockets.

toots

05-17-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course the dealers deserve to make a living wage, but shouldn't the grinders be able to as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that in not tipping, that living comes out of the dealer's pocket. You're saying the grinder has a more valid claim to making a living than someone who has a real job?

Trainwreck

05-17-2005, 03:52 PM

If no one tipped dealers would all make the same wage at each place, and it would be horrible.

WHY?

No motivation to be CIVIL let alone a good dealer.
^exaggeration

Hardly anyone would want to be a dealer.

Thus, it would really affect POKER in a negative way.

So toke good service, and don't if bad, if you're a total stiffinator.

>TW<

MtDon

05-17-2005, 04:10 PM

Advice from another cheap player:

Win fewer pots and tip half as much per pot won.

-- Don

kodonnell

05-17-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If no one tipped dealers would all make the same wage at each place, and it would be horrible.

WHY?

No motivation to be CIVIL let alone a good dealer.
^exaggeration

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the things that motivates everybody else to do their job well? Job security, advancement, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Hardly anyone would want to be a dealer.

Thus, it would really affect POKER in a negative way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, nobody wants to work for minimum wage. But then casinos and card rooms would find themselves short (or without) dealers until they paid a decent living wage. All part of supply and demand.

On a slight tangent, when the Albertson's/Ralphs grocery strike hit, I continued shopping at Albertson's...yes, I crossed the picket lines, I am a horrible person. When the strikers told me not to shop there because Albertson's didn't give their employees a decent wage (or benefits), I told them if you don't like your job or the company you work for, go find another job that pays what you you feel you deserve. Too many people like to stand around and complain about their situation rather than taking action to their benefit. I don't quite understand it, but America is a free country so people have the right to complain, and I have the right to tell them to STFU.

meow_meow

05-17-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course the dealers deserve to make a living wage, but shouldn't the grinders be able to as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that in not tipping, that living comes out of the dealer's pocket. You're saying the grinder has a more valid claim to making a living than someone who has a real job?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had to guess, I'd say the dealers were making significantly more than I was, with zero ROR.

kodonnell

05-17-2005, 04:33 PM

Oh yea, one more thing. Who determines which professions get a tip and which do not? How do I get data analysts added to the list?

Before you say service professionals should get tips, I was a carpet cleaner for about 6 years and was very good at what I did. I figure I was tipped once out of every 15-20 jobs I did. Much less than 1% of my income was from tips.

How often do you tip your carpet cleaner?

How is he/she generally different than a casino dealer which makes the dealer eligible for tips and the carpet cleaner not?

tylerdurden

05-17-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that prices would be the same if the restaurant paid waiters the equivelent of what they make in tips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, yea. The prices are set by supply/demand...where is the restaurant guy who posted above?...prices are set at the maximum people will pay for the food/service, not based on how much the staff is paid. If the price for food was based on the wages of the staff, you could also say that waiters in very expensive restaurants get paid proportianately more than less expensive restaurants. While that statement may be slightly true, restaurant owners will set prices based on what they can charge, not the wages paid. The difference goes into their pockets.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to understand enough to figure out why you are wrong. If tipping waiters was forbidden, but menu prices stayed the same, the effective price would actually be going down. Since you believe that demand would stay the same and that restaurant owners will arbitrarily charge whatever they can, the menu prices should in fact go UP, approximately 15%.

FWIW, you are also neglecting the effect that increased waiter wages would have on the supply side. Given that the restaurant business generally has razor thin margins, taking all of the waiter wages out of the menu prices while keeping those prices fixed would put most restaurants out of business in short order.

kodonnell

05-17-2005, 05:15 PM

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You seem to understand enough to figure out why you are wrong. If tipping waiters was forbidden, but menu prices stayed the same, the effective price would actually be going down. Since you believe that demand would stay the same and that restaurant owners will arbitrarily charge whatever they can, the menu prices should in fact go UP, approximately 15%.

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Very good point. But I do not give the general public the credit to see it that way. If a steak dinner costs $10 at Joe's Steak House and $11.50 at Steak King (tipping forbidden), most will go to Joe's even though the effective price is the same.

I also agree that increasing the staff wages without any additional profit would put many restaurants out of business. They would need to find a way to boost profit without increasing prices. That would be a tough nut. There would be additional volume though advertising ***No tipping allowed*** giving the consumer added value, but would it compensate? Maybe?

Anyways, we are not really talking about restaurants, we are talking about casinos. And while the card room of a casino is obviously not a large income generator for the casino, the casinos find value in them. No tips, no dealers. No dealers, no card room. So the casino does what every other business does. Pays its people the least amount of money possible while maintaing the quality of service they wish to be known for, the number of staff to maintain it and the profit it requires to stay in business.