Change of Poker Room=On Tilt

[Devast]

I understant this is the place to come for poker advice so here I am. I've been playing poker for about a year so I don't claim to know everything or even very much. Ive been playing at Party Poker (2/4) for most of that time and have done ok. According to PokerTracker I'm winning at about BB3.5/100. (FYI PokerTracker indicates I play SLAA VP$P=22, PFR%=6, PFA=2.14 with about 15,000 hands played)

My problem is I have recently started playing at another pokerroom and Im getting killed where I feel like I should be able to win. The place is filled with horrible (at least they seem horrible to me) players. It's not uncommon to sit at a table where 60-75% see the flop. Everybody seems willing to call to the river to try to catch a hand. I've already determined that there is no point to trying to bluff because nobody is going to fold. I've made an effort to tighten my game up even more but I cant find a winning formula. For a while I tried to play what I consider VERY TIGHT, only playing top 10 hands. But inevitably when I do get AA or KK and raise or reraise before the flop, I get beat by someone who cold-called the 3 bet and hits both his 9 and his 5???

I guess Im looking for some advice on how to play in a game like this because Im finding it very tough.

Thanks
Devast

[Catt]

I would be interested in learning the name of this poker room.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested in learning the name of this poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mtdoak]

15,000 hands is NOT enough to claim your a winning player. Even the loosest players here will will tell you that your seeing too many flops and not raising enough preflop. That being said, it doesn't mean your NOT a winning player. Even the best players in the world suffer from horrible downswings. Your agression seems good. Take it in stride, and just push through. Tighten up and be more agro before the flop.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont mean to be rude, but the nature of your post indicates that you are not even a lurker in these forums. this appears to be the first time you have ever come here, and you decided to grace our presence with a story about a short term downswing.

to sum up any useful advice you will get from this thread, the definition of variance is it.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Even the loosest players here will will tell you that your seeing too many flops and not raising enough preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My VPIP is consistently > 20%.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even the loosest players here will will tell you that your seeing too many flops and not raising enough preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My VPIP is consistently > 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me : /images/graemlins/heart.gif ing ____________

as

___________ : > 20% VP$IP

because i was convinced for months after getting poker tracker that i was too loose and just running good (this was when my posts were even more poorer and more fullerer of rancor than they currently are) until i learned that despite everyone's fascination with the 16-18% VP$IP range +20 was a-ok.

and yes, the dailies to my senior film project are The Ill Dope Hotness and will concurrently PWN all comers in a few weeks, which is why I'm so crazy today.

[meep_42]

I'm right about 19.5-20%, i'm nowhere near as good as sfer or ErrantNight postflop, and I make it work.

-d

[Stack]

Devast:

Study Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. Seriously.

You'll do great in the game you are and you'll underestand your loosing streak better.

If you haven't read any books yet, start with The Theory of Poker.

[FoodForThought]

Generally speaking, other online poker sites have games that are harder than Party. I believe this to be true because these sites have propositional players (most of them anyhow)...so you might be at a table with up to 5 players that play for a living (sometimes these players are just as bad as the rest though). Also, I don't think you have enough hands to determine any kind of pattern. 15,000 hands is about a week and half for me....hardly long term. Oh....I think a VP$IP of 22% is too loose, especially in tougher games.

[Barry]

At a typical passivish 2/4 table, having a VP$IP of much under 20% is being too tight IMO. You should be able to play many of the suited connectors, Axs, and small to medium pairs that you will through away at the more aggressive limits.

Also a PFR% of 6 is low by a fair amount.

[ QUOTE ]
My problem is I have recently started playing at another pokerroom and Im getting killed where I feel like I should be able to win. The place is filled with horrible (at least they seem horrible to me) players. It's not uncommon to sit at a table where 60-75% see the flop. Everybody seems willing to call to the river to try to catch a hand. I've already determined that there is no point to trying to bluff because nobody is going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ah yes, the old "I can't beat the fish, so I should play against better players" feeling. If you really think that, try sitting in one of the 2+2'er tables that happen every now and again at various limits, and see how you feel afterwards.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Devast:

Study Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. Seriously.

You'll do great in the game you are and you'll underestand your loosing streak better.

If you haven't read any books yet, start with The Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[chief444]

I thought he was describing Party 2/4 until I looked closer.

I have no comments otherwise other than I wish we could just delete these types of posts as they come up. No offense to the original poster intended.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought he was describing Party 2/4 until I looked closer.

I have no comments otherwise other than I wish we could just delete these types of posts as they come up. No offense to the original poster intended.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[Bob T.]

[ QUOTE ]
My VPIP is consistently > 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bob T.]

Generally speaking, other online poker sites have games that are harder than Party.

I don't think that this is true. Especially at some of the sites with bad software, you will find a high percentage of bad players. The original poster was talking about a site with 6 or 7 seeing the flop. I hardly think that this game is full of good players.

Oh....I think a VP$IP of 22% is too loose, especially in tougher games.

I play in that neighborhood in 5-10, and 10-20 games, and seem to be surviving. It might be too low in the game he described.

If you are playing 10K hands a week, you probably are playing at least 4 tables, and then you need to play tighter, so under those conditions, 22% might be too high.

[FoodForThought]

If you can tell me what sites offer better games than Party...I AM ALL EARS (EYES).

I have no doubt that someone can survive at 22% VP$IP. I just think it is too loose for someone who is claiming to be on tilt.

Yeah...I play 4 tables.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason (or anyone else reading this) is that book worth it for the more intermediate type player (if you've read it)?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no doubt that someone can survive at 22% VP$IP. I just think it is too loose for someone who is claiming to be on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this scenario, the problem is tilt, not looseness.

[flair1239]

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If you can tell me what sites offer better games than Party...I AM ALL EARS (EYES).

[/ QUOTE ]

Look around they are not hard to find. Party offers good games consistently.

But some of these other sites come up with some outstanding games on a semi-regular basis. You can't say when or where, but I have a few sites that I pop into and look around.

I am conservative enough with my BR, to leave a couple buy-ins at each site. Sometimes I may go for 3-4 weeks without playing a site, but then one night I will pop in and see (2) 5/10 games runnng at 35% with $70 average pots.

Not to say this always turns out well, but overall it has been profitable.

The other adavantge to some of these smaller sites, is that the good players become apparent more quickly. I have played more hands with some TAGs at smaller sites than I have anyone at Party. Even with playing 1/5 of the number of hands. So basically even just playing occasionaly it is easy to spot who is making the games good.

[FoodForThought]

Exactly...and ONE possible solution to tilt is tightening up preflop.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly...and ONE possible solution to tilt is tightening up preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The solution is not playing tighter than normal and giving up EV. The solution is to stop tilting.

[FoodForThought]

Often...there is more than one solution to a problem. And one solution may be not be the best solution....but a solution nonetheless. I don't think that anyone would disagree that tightening up preflop can help get someone off tilt. You are saying to stop tilting...I agree, but how? I am offering a way to do it...then, one can work their way back to looser, more optimal play. You are just saying "don't tilt"....well, yeah, of course.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Often...there is more than one solution to a problem. And one solution may be not be the best solution....but a solution nonetheless. I don't think that anyone would disagree that tightening up preflop can help get someone off tilt. You are saying to stop tilting...I agree, but how? I am offering a way to do it...then, one can work their way back to looser, more optimal play. You are just saying "don't tilt"....well, yeah, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't get it. 22 VPIP is fine. Tilt is not. Why do you want him to tighten up? To stop tilting? Why fix something that is fine to try to solve something else, possibly unrelated, that clearly isn't? Are you going to keep arguing this?

[FoodForThought]

no...there is nothing to argue. I stand by my original comment. I also agree with you.

[meep_42]

The milk has gone bad, throw out the eggs.

-d

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
Often...there is more than one solution to a problem. And one solution may be not be the best solution....but a solution nonetheless. I don't think that anyone would disagree that tightening up preflop can help get someone off tilt. You are saying to stop tilting...I agree, but how? I am offering a way to do it...then, one can work their way back to looser, more optimal play. You are just saying "don't tilt"....well, yeah, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Don't tilt" "Just tighten up"

Neither of these is very specific, so by definition they are not helpful.

I think that it would be wrong to start tossing hands like Axs, middling pairs or SC if many of the pots are not raised PF. If he needs to tighten up, perhaps he's coldcalling raises with hands like the above or with suited broadways. He should start tossing hands like that to a legitimate raise.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason (or anyone else reading this) is that book worth it for the more intermediate type player (if you've read it)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read it and I'd say yes, but I have a strange philosophy on learning.

[RyGreen18]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason (or anyone else reading this) is that book worth it for the more intermediate type player (if you've read it)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read it and I'd say yes, but I have a strange philosophy on learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE turned me into an intermediate player, i can tell you that much

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason (or anyone else reading this) is that book worth it for the more intermediate type player (if you've read it)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read it and I'd say yes, but I have a strange philosophy on learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE turned me into an intermediate player, i can tell you that much

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, we aren't referring to SSH. Ed Miller has a newer book for beginners.

[Devast]

[ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, the old "I can't beat the fish, so I should play against better players" feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much that more like "I cant beat the fish, maybe im not improving like I thought I was.

Dev

[Devast]

Thanks for the advice, Im going to follow it. Just for the record I never claimed to be a "winning player" I simply stated my pokertracker stats such as they are. Believe me, I know Im essentially a beginner.

Dev

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Devast:

Study Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. Seriously.

You'll do great in the game you are and you'll underestand your loosing streak better.

If you haven't read any books yet, start with The Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That book is too hard for a neophyte of studying the game. A true beginner would be best to start with Ed Miller's new book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not read the new one yet, but I beleive you.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice, Im going to follow it. Just for the record I never claimed to be a "winning player" I simply stated my pokertracker stats such as they are. Believe me, I know Im essentially a beginner.

Dev

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say that of all the people who come on here with a 3.5 bb/100 winrate and 3 posts, you seem to have a much better grasp on ideas of variance and that you still have a lot to learn (as we all do) than any other.

This is meant as a compliment, even if its not obvious.

[Devast]

Thanks to all of those who offered advice. All on topic posts were appreciated.

Dev

[Devast]

Thanks. I'm not sure how that construed as anything but a compliment.

Devast

[Bob T.]

I agree with food for thought. You don't have to tighten up forever, but maybe for a session. Play a little tighter, avoid having to make some tough decisions in marginal situations, get some confidence and momentum back, then let yourself get back to your full regular game.

When I feel myself getting tilty, I try and screw down my game, and get away from the tough decisions.

If all those multitablers can make money by playing 14-18% of their hands, I should be able to survive it for a little while /images/graemlins/grin.gif.