Anything look really bad about my pt stats (other than my win rate?)

[deception5]

Hi all,

Since moving from Pacific to Party I have been basically breaking even. It is discouraging as at one point around 3k hands I was up to 8BB/100 and after last night at almost 8k hands I am down to .02BB/100. Do these stats look ok?

Game Level .50/1
Total Hands 7743
VP$IP 22.08
VP$IP SB 37.30
Folded SB to steal 79.31
Folded BB to steal 71.43
Att To Steal Blinds 26.97
Won $ WSF % 28.84
Amount Won $1.18
BB/100 Hands .02
Went to SD % 32.33
Won $ At SD % 50.70
PF Raise % 9.00

I noticed my downswing starting around 2k hands ago and I stopped using the ssh loose chart at all (unless I am reaaally sure that it applies - I had pretty much always used it at pacific) and I think this was part of my problem, but I have continued to slide since then and I wanted to make sure I'm not doing anything else too bad.

Thanks for your help!
D5

[adsman]

Aggression factor?

[Sasnak]

FWIW, you're VP might be a tad high depending upon your post flop skills. Does it seem you might be limping in with a few marginal hands and then maybe calling "one more" to see the flop?

A major leak discovered last night is my ability to see monsters under the bed and fold some nice pots when raised in front of me on the turn. The rest of your stats I'll let others comment on.

[jrz1972]

So over the past 5000 hands you've lost 240 BB? Something is seriously wrong; that is not just variance.

This is just speculation, but I am guessing that your post-flop play has some major leaks. Your preflop stats look okay for a strong post-flop player, but 22% VPIP is definitely too high if you aren't good post-flop. Likewise, 9% PFR is probably too high if you aren't able to handle the post-flop play appropriately.

If you're going to follow a preflop chart, use the "tight" chart. It will get your VPIP to ~17 and your PFR to ~7. Eventually you'll want to expand on that, but you need to get your post-flop house in order first.

[SampleTOOSMALL]

***STAMP***

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
but 22% VPIP is definitely too high if you aren't good post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a REALLY important point that recently has been sitting quietly in the back of the room since everyone in the micro forum has recently begun to shout about how everyone should be loosening up preflop.

To the OP: Were you winning at Pacific, and then losing at Party? Or were all those 8k hands at Party?

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but 22% VPIP is definitely too high if you aren't good post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a REALLY important point that recently has been sitting quietly in the back of the room since everyone in the micro forum has recently begun to shout about how everyone should be loosening up preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you propose people get good at postflop play then? It certainly isn't by playing AA all the time. You can read all the books and threads you want, but experience and evaluating the hands you've played are the most important tools for advancing your level of skill. If you never jump into the pool how are you supposed to learn how to swim?

[jrz1972]

I think there's a lot to be said for getting comfortable with common situations, and then branching out from there.

To take just one simple example, a lot of beginners are extremely uncomfortable with overcards. (How many posts have we seen where somebody raises with AK, misses the flop, and then seems lost the rest of the hand)? These sorts of hands come up all the time even for the rockiest of rocks.

Asking a new player to learn how to handle overcards AND how to handle J8s from MP when you flopped bottom pair and a backdoor flush draw and its one bet to you on the flop with two callers and a couple players yet to act is probably too much for most people.

Basically my argument is that it's much easier to learn calculus after first mastering algebra.

[GrunchCan]

Your'e too loose PF.

You don't raise enough PF relative to the number of hands you play. But you do raiuse about right for the number of hands you should be playing. Keep an eye on PFR as you moderarte your VPIP.

W$SD is on the good side of borderline. It should be higher, and you may need to let go of a few more marginal hands or bluffs/bluff catchers at the end.

Try to get away from using PF hand charts. Your goal should be to be able to make the correct PF decision based on game conditions.

Playing & studying 1/2 6m might help your endgame.

[KaiShin]

I'd agree that you need a solid foundation in the basics before branching out to more marginal preflop situations. I guess I was assuming a basic level of postflop play, which might not be true in this or any case.

Also, calculus is easy. Statistics is hard, although playing poker has helped me with that a bit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but 22% VPIP is definitely too high if you aren't good post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a REALLY important point that recently has been sitting quietly in the back of the room since everyone in the micro forum has recently begun to shout about how everyone should be loosening up preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you propose people get good at postflop play then? It certainly isn't by playing AA all the time. You can read all the books and threads you want, but experience and evaluating the hands you've played are the most important tools for advancing your level of skill. If you never jump into the pool how are you supposed to learn how to swim?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. I was not saying - never loosen up, never learn the marginal situations. Clearly they are important and a vital part of becoming a great player. But truthfully, they have nothing to do with winning at .5/1 at Party. This can be accomplished in a straightforward ABC fashion.

Learning also takes time. 8000 hands is likely not sufficient. From my experience, it took me 10000 hands just to get my VPIP down below 20 and know which hands were marginal and which weren't and why. I am still working hands back into my arsenal, and gaining comfort and confidence as I go...this will always happen. But there is a reason why we say: start off tight, loosen up as you learn. The same is true for a downswing. Tighten up, ride it out.

The question posed by the OP was not: "How do I become a better player?", as you state. It was "Why am I losing so much?"

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
The question posed by the OP was not: "How do I become a better player?", as you state. It was "Why am I losing so much?"

[/ QUOTE ]
Very good point.

To which I would also reply, "you're too loose preflop".

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you propose people get good at postflop play then? It certainly isn't by playing AA all the time. You can read all the books and threads you want, but experience and evaluating the hands you've played are the most important tools for advancing your level of skill. If you never jump into the pool how are you supposed to learn how to swim?


[/ QUOTE ]

Playing 1/2 6m is a good way to learn to loosen up in rings. It shows you the why and the when.

[deception5]

Hi all - thanks for the feedback. I think my vp$ip is skewed from the first 4k hands where I was generally using the loose chart. I noticed that my most profitable locations were the 3 mp spots which I believed were because that is the only intersection between the loose & tight charts. Since then my vp$ip has gone down a point and a half so far so I think that's on the right track.

[ QUOTE ]
Aggression factor?

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't see this on the list (do I need to scroll over for this one?) - I'll try and find this tonight.

[ QUOTE ]
To the OP: Were you winning at Pacific, and then losing at Party? Or were all those 8k hands at Party?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was winning at Pacific - went from $20 + $5 bonus up to $200 through .05/.10, .10/.20, .25/.50. I went to Paradise and played around 1000 hands there to clear the bonus at about 2BB/100 and then I've been at the party skins ever since and thought I was doing well at about 3k hands with 8BB/100. The party&skins hands are the only ones in pokertracker.

[ QUOTE ]
Try to get away from using PF hand charts. Your goal should be to be able to make the correct PF decision based on game conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]
I tried to do this but I think I am too aggressive postflop sometimes. For example when it's folded to me in late position I was raising with something like A5o. Usually this results in me winning the blinds or losing a few big bets. I think I need to stick with the charts until I feel more comfortable with my post flop skills.

[ QUOTE ]
Playing & studying 1/2 6m might help your endgame.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would love to do this but I really don't feel comfortable moving up until I'm fairly certain that I'm a winning .50/1 player.
I'm glad to hear that most people recommend tightning up preflop as that's what I've been trying to do for the past 2k hands

Thanks for the help!
D5

[bottomset]

I propose taking Entity to 4bets on the river(and 3on the turn) with just a pair of 8's(no kicker obviously) that you rivered .. on a paired board, with overcard and is 4flushed

also apply my theorem very frequently(its better than Clarkmeister's /images/graemlins/cool.gif) bluff bet/3bet on the river when the 4th flush card hits OOP in big pots(I'm gonna nail one of you guys with this eventually)

[deception5]

Here is aggression:

pf .27
flop 1.10
turn 1.83
river .83
total .71

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is aggression:

pf .27
flop 1.10
turn 1.83
river .83
total .71

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you're loose-passive.

Tighten up for a while until you start to feel like you're playing well, and play your good hands more aggressively. More betting/raising/folding and less calling in general. Hard to say specificially without reading any of your hands though.

Read SSH if you haven't already.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is aggression:

pf .27
flop 1.10
turn 1.83
river .83
total .71

[/ QUOTE ]

You are way too passive. My flop AF is literally three times yours, and I suspect that's the same for most other people in this forum. (Your river AF is also way low and should be at least twice its current value).

Definitely work on postflop play.

[deception5]

Cool thanks I'll work on that. I have read SSH and have been going back and rereading sections whenever I get the chance!

Thanks again,
D5

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is aggression:

pf .27
flop 1.10
turn 1.83
river .83
total .71

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you're loose-passive.

Tighten up for a while until you start to feel like you're playing well, and play your good hands more aggressively. More betting/raising/folding and less calling in general. Hard to say specificially without reading any of your hands though.

Read SSH if you haven't already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, get SSH-ified.

Based on your aggression, I don't recommend 1/2 6m. You will get destroyed.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all - thanks for the feedback. I think my vp$ip is skewed from the first 4k hands where I was generally using the loose chart. D5

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG. Using the SSHE loose chart for 8,000 hands will generally not get you to 22 VPIP, let alone using the loose chart for just half of that period. Your VPIP is higher for another reason.

I use the loose chart with some extra additions here and there and my VPIP is lower than yours.

[Nomad84]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is aggression:

pf .27
flop 1.10
turn 1.83
river .83
total .71

[/ QUOTE ]

I was relatively passive early on, but I was also slightly loose (moreso than you, but not by much). I discovered that simply playing better starting hands will have a big impact on aggression simply because you can be more confident about your hand. You are in a tough situation less often and you will be more likely to know whether probably hold the best hand or not. Also, I've been making a lot more value bets after learning more about hidden outs and about how to count backdoor draws. On the basis of these value bets, I would expect my flop AF to be higher than the others (and this seems to be the norm) but that isn't the case for me. This could be skewed by my first few thousand hands though. I am just starting 1/2 and those hands are in a separate database, so we will see what happens. I'm no expert, but I have been beating the Party .5/1 for 5.5 BB/100 over 8500 hands. I still play slightly too loose pf, IMO, especially in the SB. I think that I am running better than average, although my other stats don't really indicate this as much as my winrate.

In short, I think that focusing on tightening up preflop, looking for value-betting opportunities (some are less obvious than others), and not automatically seeing monsters under the bed will go a long way towards improving your aggression, and ultimately, your win rate.