10K checkup

[Trix]

Attempting to LAG it up without overdoing it, so would be good with some feedback. So far I like it, but then again, 10K hands isn´t much.

http://img233.echo.cx/img233/6194/05fremredigered0ex.jpg

Thanks to everyone who took the time last time.

[mperich]

I like it Trix. Your stats are almost IDENTICAL to mine preflop. As of my 20k hands IM 25.83/18.71 with 37.4 ASB

Ur BB defense is also within 1%. The only thing I can see is that perhaps you are not seeing enough showdowns as mine is at 40.5% right now, altho I know im calling a bit too much and want to get it back down to around 39ish where it was b4 I went on this recent LAG experiment.

-Mike

[Rico Suave]

Trix:

Your postflop aggression dropped a notch or 2 from your previous stats post. Was this by design, or did it just follow from your increase preflop lagginess (or is it just sample size)?

--Rico

[Trix]

I go to showdown around 3.5% more now and play a fair bit looser, which means I often have less of a hand and my raises are less respected. So I dont play fast to get a "free" showdown on the river as often as I used to.

I´m also back to 2 tables, which gives me better reads, played 3 most of the other strech and had been on vacation a week before starting it, so my game was a little off.

People seem to play back more, so when I have a hand I can showdown, rather than Q7s, I like to do it.

My weaker hands should also gain value from this as people get more likely to fold the flop when I´m stealing if they dont think they can´t bluff me.

[Wynton]

Trix,

I assume you whited out your amounts won so as to ensure that people analyzed your stats more objectively. But can you just give me a general idea how you're doing, and can you mention where you're playing (i.e., what levels and sites)?

I'm too much of a newbie at these tables to offer any advice, and just want to get a sense of whether these stats are good guidelines for me where I play (usually ps, 3/6 six-max).

[Trix]

It´s party 5/10 and I´m running very well and feel that this is much better than the way I used to play. Just getting into pots with some of these players can be pretty sweet.
I still think there is a fair ammount of room for improval of my preflop game though.

You will have to play the SB less in 3/6 though and some of the marginal hands you are probably better off dumping till you get a better feel for the game. You said you were a newbie, so I hope this is ok.

[Silverback]

Good stats,

Do you feel you have weak areas in your game and if so what and how do you think you are going to change the way you play.

One stat that stands out to me is UTG, still low vpip, the rest looks good as far as I can make out, and Ive looked at a lot of stats posts,

[Rico Suave]

Trix:

[ QUOTE ]
It´s party 5/10 and I´m running very well and feel that this is much better than the way I used to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am happy to hear that it is working well for you.

Just curious...were you winning with the way you used to play. My stats are very close to your old style and I am essentially breakeven after 18K hands. I am hugely frustrated as the games seem sooo soft, but I am unable to get any traction.

--Rico

[Wynton]

Trix, if you're going to answer Rico, can you briefly summarize how your stats changed (or point me to a link), since I didn't see your former stats.

And thanks for your other reply.

[tolbiny]

I lost all of my numbers over the weekend... so frustrating. But from what i remember Your Postflop aggression stats are very similar to where mine were- especiall in the way they drop from flop to river. My wtsd was a lot higher (somewhere in the 38-40% range) this looks like it was due to my Called river bet was 6-8% higher. These were over 50k hands, i don't have any recollection of my folded my blinds #'s, but we seem to be on the same page for postflop play. However my preflop vpip was usually a tad below 24, and pfr was ~16. I am very interested in how your looser play works out, keep posting your stats.

[Trix]

Think I had been winning on a rate of 1.75/100 or so before this for almost 40K hands since I started playing 5/10 6.
My vpip was extremely low when I started playing 6m.

[Trix]

other stat post (http://tinyurl.com/aum2x)

[Wynton]

Wow, this is interesting comparison for me, as my stats seem to be in the middle of your two sets of stats, though a bit closer to your original set. Keep us updated about your new style.

[arkady]

HOw much are you losing frmo the BB/SB, should have left those numbers /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Trix]

0.07/0.19 with 5-6 players.

[J.R.]

over only 1,5000ish hands /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[goodguy_1]

Trix:
I find this kind of post very helpful when I compare it to your old numbers.I'm surprised you earned 1.75bb/100 at your old stats becuase man you were way tight.I also play a little too tight pre-flop ~23.00% so I wanted to see what parts of your game really changed for you to loosen up and have a better earn-I assume your earn is better.Even with the small sample this is educational.. I wish the sample was 50K hands thu not 10K hands.Excuse me if this is just obvious analysis but I'm doing this really to help myself..so here goes:

I'm not a PT expert so I may make a few errors here.
I think the most important stat of dozens is one you dont see mentioned much on here:When Folds Hand:No Fold%-an overall measurement- has gone from 15.58% on your first sample to 21.34%-this is a huge difference and just shows you have generally just loosened up and are folding less.Post flop overall on each street you are folding much less.

To look at your stats from the start.Big changes are your VP$IP has gone from 18.08% to 25.53%.You have really loosened up in the small blind VP$IP there going from 22.50% to 36.63%.You are folding less to BB Steals from 63.17%(around where I am -ding)to 54.63%.
Your blind defense has improved.You are folding less and going to showdown more in general.In the SB you are folding 21.74% now compared to 30%.In the BB you are now folding 41.33%(wow thats low) vs.50.77%.

Attempt to steal Blinds up huge 37.53% vs.28.52%.Best of all with higher steal% I think your opponenets are giving you much more action post-flop-they are calling more pre-flop raises and folding less on the flop- your Steal Success w/no flop is lower but the good thing is you seem to be folding more on the flop when you miss-best of all your W$SD% is 61.94% vs.48.22%(damn thats high!)

Another overall huge difference in your game is that you are going to Showdown much more often.35% now vs.31.63%..I also do not go to showdown enough.At the same time while you are going to showdown more your Won$At showdown has come down to 54.75% from 58.67%-more in line with the accepted norms for better players in HUSH-mine is still too high..I dont go to showdown enough and my Won$ at Showdown thusly is way too high.

Your PFR has gone from 13.86% to 18.54%.You've obviously widened the range of hands you are raising with.
Another huge difference in your game where I see similarities to myself is that intially we both have played too aggresively post-flop in this game.I have already toned this way down..but I still struggle to contain my instincts to bet too much in many spots when checking or just calling makes more money.
Your Total OverAll Post-flop Aggression has fallen from 3.27 to 2.59-thats a pretty big drop.Your aggression factors have gone from 3.93 to 3.10,3.05 to 2.60 and 2.46 to 1.79 on the flop,turn and river respectively.When I delve into your aggression numbers I see the same pattern.On the flop you are calling more(13.87% vs.10.31%) and folding less(21.29% vs.17.93%).On the turn you are calling more and betting less.On the river you are calling much more(21.18% vs.16.44%)and folding less(11.89% vs.14.08%).

Another huge difference in an important stat is your Folded to River Bet now 36.44% vs.48.38%-I still fold too much to a river bet-I think that's a by-product of my tendency to still be too aggresive post-flop.

I'm sure I've made more than couple errors somehwere in here.It's nice to be able to compare 2 divergent styles and see where you may be really helping yourself out.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
0.07/0.19 with 5-6 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just 10K. I'm pretty sure all we can talk about is VP$IP, PFR and maybe agression.

Krishan

[arkady]

yeah, this is statistically insignificant. But overall he is moving in the right direction I guess.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, this is statistically insignificant. But overall he is moving in the right direction I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't think you can tell a thing. His VP$IP is up. Maybe that's good. Maybe it's horrible. I'm really sure his current BB/100 is irrelevant. There is nearly nothing you can tell from these stats. And these posts get so many responses!!

I can post a 8K sample where I ran 6 BB/100 with a VP$IP of 26%. But what's the point? I was just running hot.

Krishan

[Wynton]

Are these numbers really statistically insignificant for the purpose of assessing style of play, as opposed to results?

I realize bb/100 might need 50K or more hands to be significant, but thought that conclusions about other stats could be drawn based on far fewer hands. After 10K hands, I'd have assumed that one could ascertain whether they are too tight/passive, folding on river too much, etc.

[arkady]

Unfortunately that is not the case either. Almost every single number is skewed. It could just so happen that he got more playable cards dealt to him in a position where he was willing to limp/raise with them. It is probably unlikely, but certainly plausible. Trix posted his results because he noticed an influx in his win rate, if he was breaking even I doubt we would privied to these numbers. The conclusion most of you are drawing; He loosened up, he won more. Therefore...I should also loosen up and I will win more. Everything here is hinged on an increase in win rate, which is grossly unreliable over this sample. Trix did the right thing by whiting it out, but it is the driving force in this thread.

There are no conclusions to be drawn here.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately that is not the case either. Almost every single number is skewed. It could just so happen that he got more playable cards dealt to him in a position where he was willing to limp/raise with them. It is probably unlikely, but certainly plausible. Trix posted his results because he noticed an influx in his win rate, if he was breaking even I doubt we would privied to these numbers. The conclusion most of you are drawing; He loosened up, he won more. Therefore...I should also loosen up and I will win more. Everything here is hinged on an increase in win rate, which is grossly unreliable over this sample. Trix did the right thing by whiting it out, but it is the driving force in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

Krishan

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
There are no conclusions to be drawn here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's a little bit extreme.Yes a 50K or 100K sample is better than 10K sample but chances are the changes he has made in his game will help him in the short-term(this sample) and also long-term.

[arkady]

i already said those changes are a step in the right direction. Only difference is that I said for a different reason. NOT because his short-term win rate jumped and that is what everyone is concentrating on. It would be equally tragic if he adapted this new style, dropped a few thousand and reverted back to his old tight self.

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
NOT because his short-term win rate jumped and that is what everyone is concentrating on

[/ QUOTE ] I'm focusing on the changes he's made to his overall game..whether he had a better winrate this sample or not must of us know that the changes he has made to his style of play are valuable in the longterm.I'm concentrating on the dynamics of his game not his winrate.Yes 10K hands suck as a sample but the shift in style is so dramatic that even a crappy sample like 10K hands can show you how hard he's trying to work on his game.

you are right in that it is much easier to implement and maintain a change in style when you are running well so yes it's a valid point.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately that is not the case either. Almost every single number is skewed.

There are no conclusions to be drawn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you're right, that sucks. Are you saying there's no point to examining one's own stats after 10,000 hands?

[Brom]

It looks like you had higher success in the blinds with your old stat set. Do you feel this is true (I can't see the actual winrate numbers)? It does appear that you lose a little less in the SB now then you previously did. Perhaps you are defending the BB just a little too liberally. More than likely though, you are just adjusting to your new style of play, and your numbers will come around. It appears that overall the style change has improved your game in all other positions and it looks to be a step in the right direction.

[arkady]

No point. You are better off examining individual hands that don't "feel" right. Staring at PT's numbers will provide very little assistance for you.

[Trix]

Thanks, it´s nice to see it put up this way.

[Chobohoya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately that is not the case either. Almost every single number is skewed.

There are no conclusions to be drawn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you're right, that sucks. Are you saying there's no point to examining one's own stats after 10,000 hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what he said at all. He just said you can't draw conclusions, which you can't. You're much better served examining actual hands than you are poring over stats for this period.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
No point. You are better off examining individual hands that don't "feel" right. Staring at PT's numbers will provide very little assistance for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree slightly. There is some merit when you first get to shorthand to compare your stats against the norm. If you VP$IP less than 19 or PFR less than 10 or more than 25 than you have some issues. If aggression factor are less than 1.5 (flop and turn only) or more than 5 something is wrong. You don't need to post to figure this out though, just use the search.

Krishan

[arkady]

Actually in the case of a new player, I do agree. I just sort of forgot about that situation. Yes it is actually helpful for anyone transitioning from full to short.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No point. You are better off examining individual hands that don't "feel" right. Staring at PT's numbers will provide very little assistance for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree slightly. There is some merit when you first get to shorthand to compare your stats against the norm. If you VP$IP less than 19 or PFR less than 10 or more than 25 than you have some issues. If aggression factor are less than 1.5 (flop and turn only) or more than 5 something is wrong. You don't need to post to figure this out though, just use the search.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there any other stats you think a short table newbie can look at with under 10K hands, just to get a very general sense of whether they are making serious fundamental mistakes?

Actually, my personal wish is that someone (hint, hint) would simply provide a RANGE of reasonable numbers for each PT stat at six-max tables, i.e., a range which would encompass all reasonable views of good guidelines. In other words, you more experienced players should get together, select what you consider the ideal numbers, and then a list could be written that included ALL of the proposed numbers, thereby encompassing all purportedly reasonable views.

I know this is unrealistic to hope for, but I can dare to dream, can't I?

[Silverback]

Use the search function, thats what I did.

Also you have to realise that stats are different depending on each persons style of play,

Trixs stats are pretty much within "norm range" for vpip, pfr, Won$SD, WonSAwflop, WentSD, folded to riverbet and aggression factors, att to steal,

[goodguy_1]

Why would the best players want to publicize a guideline to help new players on a forum full of aspiring smart young wanabees?Sure they could but it's not smart in the long run.In other words if you are lucky enough to have access to top posters thoughts absorb all of it and seek out more..Thats what so great about playing short-handed-there is still no definitive guide to success via PokerTracker or even hand selection-the game is much more complex than Full LHE.To become one of the better short players you need to think and work on your game not just read a book..that is a good thing /images/graemlins/smile.gifbecause it's much less formulaic and it takes lots of hard work to improve your game.

That is one on the reasons why I have shifted most of my play away from Full LHE where most players now have sufficient education to not suck too badly-that is not the same in short LHE.That's why the Full LHE games in general are degrading faster than the Short LHE games and will continue to suck even more.Every table has TAG clones making up 70-80% of the table.The short LHE frontier is wide open and will yield more profits comparated to LHE full games-until these game get found... hopefully that wont be for another couple of years.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Trixs stats are pretty much within "norm range" for vpip, pfr,

[/ QUOTE ]

VP$IP is high and PFR is a little high. Telling newbies moving up to play 25% is not good. I'd recommend Strips old stats for newbies.
[ QUOTE ]
Probably 21 or 22 vpip and 13-14pfr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'd recommend a hair more agressive preflop.

Krishan