"I have KK" Ethics/EV Question

[Smarty]

In this hand there are 4 people left, top 3 get money. I have 2 questions here...

Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: Villian ( $1415 )
Seat 4: 2( $3175 )
Seat 6: Hero( $1500 )
Seat 9: 2 ( $1910 )
Trny:X Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Kh ]
1 folds.
Villian raises [800].
2 folds.
Hero is all-In [1300]

Here are my questions...
1. Is it unethical to say something like "I have KK" or "There is a distinct possibly I have KK" here to encourage him to fold? Would I be penalized online?

2. Is it +EV? He has been thinking for a while and I get the feeling he has the right odds to call with his Ax or underpair. How many chips behind does he need to have behind to make this +EV/-EV?

What are your feelings? Thanks.

[pshreck]

Yes its unethical.

And it doesnt make sense. You really want to double up here.

[Daliman]

He is getting 2300 for 500. Unless he has total rags or Kx, all you are doing is giving him a perfect odds problem. There's no reason to want a fold here anyways, really. If you lose, you lose, thems the breaks.

[iMsoLucky0]

Interesting question. I think it is probably unethical, and you definitely want him to call in this situation.

However, there are some situations where you would rather your opponent not call, even if you are a huge favorite.

I wonder if in those situations you could say something like "I have a really big hand," and if that would be acceptable.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes its unethical.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and let me explain why. Its obviously not unethical to him or you, as it would potentially help you both. But if this information somehow led to him or you placing ITM when you otherwise wouldnt have (like maybe him laying down q's as a result) then I think you can see why it is unethical.

[Maulik]

The only way to get an answer of correctness is to ask Partypoker if that's accetpable.

[shejk]

All hands with an ace have odds to call you.

[microbet]

I don't think it's ethical.

[Voltron87]

Wow. There is nothing "unethical" about saying you have KK. Do any of you actually know what ethics are? I think what OP wants to ask is, "Is this breaking the rules?" and you would have to ask Party about that.

[lorinda]

I believe that this covers it.

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no soft-playing during Tournaments. Soft playing is to not bet your hand to the fullest extent when playing against someone (usually friends and/or family). It goes against the spirit of the game and is considered cheating in some instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not as sure as some of the other posters that you want a call here, but I can't be bothered to do the math right now anyway.

Lori

[microbet]

I probably don't know what ethics are. Morals is as close as I can get.

MORAL, adj.
Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.

[Voltron87]

Ok, morals are a whole different ballgame. Completely different things. Ethics have to do with living up to your expected and professional obligations. Morals are more "what's right and good".

[lorinda]

mutable
expediency

You just made this twice as difficult.

Lori

[microbet]

Does this help?

IMMORAL, adj.
Inexpedient. Whatever in the long run and with regard to the greater number of instances men find to be generally inexpedient comes to be considered wrong, wicked, immoral. If man's notions of right and wrong have any other basis than this of expediency; if they originated, or could have originated, in any other way; if actions have in themselves a moral character apart from, and nowise dependent on, their consequences -- then all philosophy is a lie and reason a disorder of the mind.

[david050173]

The obvious solution to this question is to say "I have AA". That way you are not telling them your hand but you are letting them know that they probably don't want to call. Of course no one will believe you any way so this whole discussion is useless...

[stupidsucker]

I want him to fold personaly, but I expect and dont mind a call.

As for table talk about your hand the line is thin. Its obvious to me that your intentions would be strictly selfish and thus is not collusion.

I hear people talk about what they have all the time. I do not think it is against the rules unless you tell some and not all the people.

IMO the small line is so small on if you want a call or not so why not just play the hand and not say anything.

[Matt Walker]

Talking about your cards while the hand is in play to influence a decision is called coffeehousing and it is wrong. Party Poker probally won't do anything about it unless someone at your table reports it and makes a big deal about it. This still doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't be doing it to begin with. Besides why in the world would you want to in this hand? If he belives you, your only helping him because he no longer has to ponder what you have and he can make the correct decision easily for w/e two cards he has. If he doesn't belive you then it doesn't matter anyways. Therefore, I conclude that your telling him is a -EV play. Besides this you have KK. Be a man. Take the rest of his chips. Play for first.

[Scuba Chuck]

Look, if you don't want a call, then do a stop n go. Otherwise, thems the breaks....

Do I think it's unethical? Well, you're asking right? I think that should pretty much sum it up. It's unethical to all the players in the game. Poker is a game of incomplete information. Think you might be compromising that part of the game?

[curtains]

Of course you want a fold here preflop and it's not close. Unfortunately there is very little chance your opponent will fold.

[Blarg]

I don't feel it's unethical because you have made no promises to tell the truth, and a poker table is the last place you'd ever expect to hear the truth. Every bet, raise, and call has a potential lie buried in it; it's part of the nature of poker and part of the fun and challenge of it. Poker wouldn't even be the same game without the mind games and ever-present potential to misrepresent your hand or your intentions in everything you do.

That doesn't extend to shooting angles like pretending to throw away your cards in live play, as I've seen some people do, so that the other guy throws his in after thinking you've surrendered, and then snatching yours back before they hit the muck and claiming you were just putting your cards down and you don't know why he threw his cards away, but you're the winner. That kind of crap is slimy as all hell. But running your mouth off like a fool, or saying whatever you like, at the poker table is a different kind of thing altogether. My only concern is that you be entertaining while doing it, and don't hold up the flow of the game too much while you're trying to win your Oscar.

Now, if the guy was your friend and you lied to him, that would be another story, though if you have an understanding that at the poker table, all bets are off so to speak and survival of the fittest is what it's all about and acceptable to all, then you're fine there too. Then you're just posing an interesting question to him that's part of the fun: Am I lying?

By the way, you will not be penalized for saying something like this in a live card room, and you won't be penalized for it online either, as it's generally understood that "cards speak," meaning it's the cards that tell the tale, and you can run your mouth off all you like, but that makes no difference.

As to the +EV part, he has already put in half his stack, and the pot is now enormous, so he'll put in the rest. He'd be a fool to listen to anything you have to say in a poker game, for the reasons noted above, but at this point he's pot committed anyway.

Actually, I think what you said encourages him to call. You've just told him you have less than AA, since AA would never tell someone they had KK to get them to fold anything less than another AA. So you've just told him KK is your top hand, but that you want him to fold, which means you might have less than KK. This encourages any ace to call.

You could take it one step further and figure he might be thinking you know this and are actually encouraging him to call because you really DO have AA and are pulling a scam on him to make him think you don't, and that he should therefore really be thinking about folding, but...AA isn't that common a hand, and I don't think the average player is working at this level anyway.

[johnd13]

from Party support:

"giving any impression on your cards while the hand is in progress is against the rules. The activity will be recorded in the account and we will monitor the account. We keep all suspicious activities logged in a notes section on the account. If they repeat this action, we will have the details of the hand as further evidence and will take more drastic action if necessary.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that this covers it.

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no soft-playing during Tournaments. Soft playing is to not bet your hand to the fullest extent when playing against someone (usually friends and/or family). It goes against the spirit of the game and is considered cheating in some instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not as sure as some of the other posters that you want a call here, but I can't be bothered to do the math right now anyway.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I softplay from time to time if I am the big stack and the guy to the left of me is the tiny one. I fold my SB in spots I wouldn't otherwise.

Of course I am not doing it to be soft but to be able to continue to steal from the others.

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
I softplay from time to time if I am the big stack and the guy to the left of me is the tiny one. I fold my SB in spots I wouldn't otherwise.

Of course I am not doing it to be soft but to be able to continue to steal from the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still fear the day when I have to explain to Party support that it is purely for my own interests that I make this play.

Lori

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I softplay from time to time if I am the big stack and the guy to the left of me is the tiny one. I fold my SB in spots I wouldn't otherwise.

Of course I am not doing it to be soft but to be able to continue to steal from the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still fear the day when I have to explain to Party support that it is purely for my own interests that I make this play.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? As long as you don't have any connections with anyone at the table why would Party care that you fold your SB when it costs 20 more to call the shortstacks BB? People make stupid plays all the time, you might not have liked your JJ because you "could feel he had an A". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

Why? As long as you don't have any connections with anyone at the table why would Party care that you fold your SB when it costs 20 more to call the shortstacks BB? People make stupid plays all the time, you might not have liked your JJ because you "could feel he had an A". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine folding AA in the SB is something that is a flagged event in their anti-collusion software.