Dumb, easy hypothetical

[Roybert]

I'm sorry to bug you guys with a stupid one, but I want to know what I should do in this hypothetical situation. Sorry in advance if this one is more suited for the beginner forum, too. I would post a hand, but I don't have one to post (it was just something I was thinking about).

Say you have a nut four-flush on the flop. Someone leads out and you are second to act. Should you raise or call generally in this situation?

I know that there are a lot of other factors to consider, but i am just curious on what to do in a typical micro-limit table.

[adsman]

It depends. How many players are there to act behind you? Do you have any reads on them? If you just call, what are the chances of it being raised behind so you can reraise?

[MarkGritter]

Well... a lot of the other factors are important.

Are the players behind you likely to call two cold? Then raise by all means.

Is the player who led out likely to lead out the turn? If not, then raise for a free card.

Are there lots of players behind you? Then you might consider going for overcalls.

Did you raise preflop? And get bet into anyway on a scary board? These affect how likely are you to get 3-bet.

Heck--- is the nut four-flush with two cards in your hand or not?

At a minimum I think you need to know the number of players to have any chance of answering this correctly.

[Roybert]

Yeah - you're absolutely right, I really would need to include a lot more information to give anyone a chance to answer this one with any certainty. I guess I was stupidly just looking for a roadmap, knowing full well that there aren't any in poker /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[adsman]

Just remember, the nut flush draw on the flop, (I assume that you're holding the big cards) is a really strong hand. Play it that way. People often talk about "charging the flush draws". You don't charge a flush draw. It's got that much equity that it is an even favourite to win against TPTK. At the end it's whoever gets there first.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
It's got that much equity that it is an even favourite to win against TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true.

[UncleSalty]

At the root of your question is the concept of having a "pot equity edge" over your opponents on the flop, and the secondary consideration of maintaining that edge.

1. Your Equity
With a nut flush draw, (and ignoring any possibility of a Full Boat for simplicity), you "own" 35% of this pot. (You have 9 cards which will win the pot and a 35% chance that one will hit by the river)

2. Your equity "edge"
You equity edge is basically the spread between your pot equity and your "fair share" as determined by dividing the pot equally among the remaining players. So, if you and 4 others see the flop, your fair share is 20%. If it's just you and two other opponents, your fair share would be 33.3%. So, with the example above, you would have about a 15% edge against 4 opponents, but would not have an edge at all against just 2.

3. Exploiting Equity Edges
The equity edge concept is useful in determining when it would be profitable to add multiple bets to the pot (bet, raise, and re-raise) or just to call. (Calling is determined by pot odds, which is a related but separate concept.) If you have an equity edge, you want everyone who is still in the pot to cap the flop with you. (Do you see why this is true? Think about the case with 4 opponents. You will "own" 35% of every bet that is put in the pot, but you are only contributing 20% of the total bets. In this situation you would love for every opponent to go all-in with you if possible)

4. Maintaining an equity edge
Now we actually get to answer your question, and address other posters suggestion that you need reads on your opponents.

Let's examine your question with 4 opponents vs. 2. With 4 opponents your fair share is 20%, so you have a massive equity edge, and would like as many bets as possible to go into the pot. But, if you raise here, you risk driving out the remaining 2 opponents, making your fair share 50%, and therefore eliminating your equity edge completely. If you are sure that they will call 2 bets cold, then by all means you want to raise. Ideally, you want to be last to act, or at least act after 3 opponents have called so you are guaranteed to maintain your edge.

In the situation with just 2 opponents, your equity edge is zero. You will never want to raise here. (Pot odds will likely dictate that you call any bets though.)

Hopefully these examples help you understand why position is an essential consideration when exploiting a pot equity edge. Let me know if anything seems unclear.

-Salty

Edit: Oh, and my understanding of these concepts to the point that I can (try to) explain them to others is entirely due to GrunchCan's explanation to me a few months ago. My how quickly our knowledge grows on this site!

[Roybert]

This is unbelieveably helpful! Thanks very much for taking the time to help out a noob with his rookie questions.

[adsman]

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[ QUOTE ]
It's got that much equity that it is an even favourite to win against TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes I just shouldn't drink and post.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's got that much equity that it is an even favourite to win against TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes I just shouldn't drink and post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[UncleSalty]

My pleasure man, I'm just trying to give back to the community that has been so helpful to my own growth. (And, as GrunchCan is fond of pointing out, explaining this stuff to others really helps solidify it in one's head.)

Best of luck, and see you on the tables.

-Salty

Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much for taking the time to help out a noob with his rookie questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been a member here twice as long as me, my friend! You just need to stop by more often. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[atnels]

To add a few things to Salty's excellent reply on pot equity and equity edge:

He mentioned this, but to give a specific example:

You see the flop for one bet with 5 other slightly weak-tight opponents and are on the button w/T9s and flop your 4-flush. It's checked to CO who bets. Raising won't accomplish anything if you fold out everyone. Now you're down to just yourself and one other player; no equity edge.

The ideal situation would be if SB bets out into the field in the same scenario and everyone calls. If you know SB isn't aggressive enough to reraise your raise, you can count on the vast majority of the field calling your raise, making you money.

I hesitate to even mention this, but you may get a free card in passive games by raising the flop, if you chose to take it. HOWEVER, DO NOT raise the flop just for a free card. Raise to exploite the equity edge. Any observant players will see through this and bet into you on the turn with TP hands when the flush doesn't hit. Also, checking the turn after raising the flop basically telegraphs your hand to everyone else so if your flush comes in on the river don't expect lots of action.

Welcome to the forums!