2+2TAG table. Guess Shillx's hand

[adsman]

First of all, thx to everyone for the game. I lasted 3 hours and I got my ass whipped. I've been running extremely well at .50/$1, (5.3BB over 18,000 hands) but last night I realised that my game really needs to improve. This was a TAG table with everybody generally being very tricky. Limping with a hand like 33 was almost impossible. My big hands never got paid off, and when I was found wanting I got punished. The first hour was 6 handed, which I've never played before and it showed. My stats for the night were 21%/14%/1.5. I think that shows that I was just getting plain intimidated after the flop. I dropped 44BB. I learnt a lot, my thanks once again to all concerned.

This for me was the most interesting hand of the night. Don't be confused by the size of the pot - the table average was around $5. I'm not including the names of the other two players as I don't know if they want their handles published or not.

What was Shillx's hand?


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Shillx calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Shillx calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 calls, Shillx calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Shillx raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Shillx caps</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Shillx raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

[Ianco15]

Obvious answer is QJ but probably not or you wouldnt be asking. My guess is TT then.

[A_C_Slater]

hmmmm... what would shillx cold call on button with and then call a flop bet with and then come alive on the turn? I will say AT of clubs.

[the_rookie]

I don't think shillx would CC QJs. I'd say he slowplayed KK or AA. The turn screams I can beat at least two pair. But like I said I don't see how shillx could have the straight.

[the_rookie]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmmm... what would shillx cold call on button with and then call a flop bet with and then come alive on the turn? I will say AT of clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking this too, but wouldn't a raise on the flop be standard if he had an A?

[A_C_Slater]

shillx wouldn't slowplay AA or KK....The Shillx I know abhors slowplaying.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmmmm... what would shillx cold call on button with and then call a flop bet with and then come alive on the turn? I will say AT of clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking this too, but wouldn't a raise on the flop be standard if he had an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he's using the way ahead/way behind line.

Then again after the turn cap and the river raise it seems like his hand must be stronger than two pair.

[the_rookie]

But this was at a 2+2 table no? Funny things happen at these get togethers. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[A_C_Slater]

True. He would probably change his whole game plan because he knows they know the standard game plan, etc. But why would he call on the flop with TT?

[A_C_Slater]

Would he really be raising the river after the turn cap without AA or KK?

[milesdyson]

Yeah, I think he has AA/KK, and I'm leaning more toward AA.

[DavidC]

Jesus Horatio Christ, I leave micros for a week and the 2+2 tables turn TAG??! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

QJs hearts or clubs?

He always bugs me for chasing sets, andthen mocks me when I hit them, so I don't think he has tt.

My guess is that he's got good implied odds on the flop, but didn't plan on it getting raised.

I guess I hope that the BB had a set, but he may have had AT.

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope I'm right. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

Edit: Before I read Shill's reply, I'm going to re-read the post while NOT 8-tabling, and see what weird hand he might have, because the qj wouldn't have been worth posting...

[Shillx]

QJs hearts or clubs?

No way I'm calling on this flop with this hand. I might be raising but certainly not calling.

Brad

Edit: I could be calling here with lots of hands. AA is certainly possible. So is 22. I'm not going to be calling with complete crap but I might be floating in this spot.

[DavidC]

Analysing:

What to play on the button, with some obvious folds removed:
Pairs: A K Q T J 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
Aces Unsuited: K Q J T 9
Aces Suited: K Q J T 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
Kings Unsuited: Q J
Kings Suited: Q J T 9
Queens Suited: J
Jacks Suited: T
Tens Suited: 9
Nines Suited: 8

Eliminate Pairs: A K Q J T

Would he call with 22? Investing 2 bets you'd want to be able to recover something like 15 afterwards (other people's money, not just pot size, and his equity in other people's money, not just other people's money). Since there's not enough people limping in to make this likely, we can eliminate more pairs (the above were removed because he would have reraised them).

So low pairs we remove: 2 3 4 5 6 7

I can see him calling with 88, 99, and TT, because, being on the button, he's going to have a chance to outplay the guy and attack unimproved overcards, etc.

So for pairs I'd give him: 88- 99+ TT-
(might fold 88, might raise TT).

Aces unsuited: He might call with AJ, but would likely fold. In position, there's no question that he's going to reraise AK. He may raise AQ, as calling would be pretty weak.

So (all offsuit): AK- AQ- AJ-

See, it all depends on what Shill thinks of MP. If he thinks he can outplay this guy (probably does) then he has to think about what kind of hand he wants to represent, and play his two cards accordingly...

We know by the action that Shill actually does get something eventually, likely on the turn, and therefore we can kind of ignore what I just said, but depending on Shill's confidence, we can expand the range of hands that he might play.

Aces Suited: K Q J T 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
Since a raise would be expected from K/Q, I'll be willing to say he'd call with the rest down to say 7 or 8.

Aces Suited: K- Q- J T 9 8- 7-

Kings suited: KQs and KJs-

QJs JTs very possible.

T9s possible but unlikely.

---------------------------------------

Recap: TT-, 99, 88-, AK-, AQ-, AJ-, AKs-, AQs-, AJs, ATs, A9s, A8s- A7s-, KQs, KJs-, QJs, JTs, T9s-

Actually... since 15 sb is only 7BB, I think it's reasonable to say that he's going to come in with nearly any pair, especially with position, after the other guy defines his hand a bit with a raise (not too much, because it's an open raise in middle position).

Re-recap: 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, TT-, 99, 88, AK-, AQ-, AJ-, AKs-, AQs-, AJs, ATs, A9s, A8s- A7s-, KQs, KJs-, QJs, JTs, T9s-

------------------------------------------------

On the flop:

A set is NOT calling here. The PFR has something and is betting a made hand. You want to push the hell out of this flop and get his money in there if you've got the set.

And other pairs wouldn't chase sets.

And there's no flush draw.

So a straight draw is left, and I'm still really convinced that it's QJ due to the turn action...

So I guess I'm going to stick by my original opinion.
BB could have A2/AT/22 (with 22 and A2 being more likely because of the checkraise on the flop).

Also, if I had to put the MP1 on a hand, it would be AQ, probably of diamonds, because he's putting in A LOT of bets on this turn.

So... now I'm REALLY curious how I'm doing. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Time to read Shillx's reply.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
QJs hearts or clubs?

No way I'm calling on this flop with this hand. I might be raising but certainly not calling.

Brad

Edit: I could be calling here with lots of hands. AA is certainly possible. So is 22. I'm not going to be calling with complete crap but I might be floating in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising with a gutshot?

Why, for the free card? If you get it, you still wouldn't be getting correct odds on your gutshot, since at 6:1 (gutshot flop to river odds, right?) required, you'd still be only getting perhaps 4:1, and you'd have to count on getting a few more bets if you hit the river.

Re: calling with lots of hands... agreed... I looked at that a few min later.

Could you please explain why you'd raise QJs hearts in this hand?

If you don't mind checking out my "why I think Shill's got QJs" post (the analysis one) that would be sweet too, but I understand if you're busy.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[SCfuji]

give him the only two deuces left in the deck.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
give him the only two deuces left in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

22 vs bb's a2?

[aK13]

I think Shillx is playing AK. He cold calls preflop to mask the strength of his hand, courtesy of HEFAP?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Shillx is playing AK. He cold calls preflop to mask the strength of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill would never cold call with AK with position, 99% sure.

AA... maybe for showoff value.. not AK.

[IMTheWalrus8]

Adsman - OT but just wanted to say thanks for setting up the table. I am just developing my LHE skills and playing with more advanced players was interesting. I was there for about 90 minutes while multi-tabling, and didn't realize everyone was showing - I'll unclick "muck" next time and share the cards. And hopefully take a few more pots ...

[UncleSalty]

/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif(In the dark)

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Edit: Thanks for setting up the table Adsman. I was only around for the shorthanded part, but I had a good time and learned. I think I enjoy "realgame" 2+2 tables more than super LAGfests, mostly because $.50/$1 isn't that far away from my current limits, so I can't treat it like monopoly money as some can. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[btspider]

blind post:

i'd guess shill floated PF with 22.

He's not floating after the flop action and I don't think he calls those flop bets with TT. AA/KK is possible, but I wouldn't like it too much unless the BB is tight (won't see a cheap flop very often) and he'll make up the SB postflop via deception.

added: ATs is also possible, tho I'm not sure he puts in that river raise with it.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Thanks for setting up the table Adsman. I was only around for the shorthanded part, but I had a good time and learned. I think I enjoy "realgame" 2+2 tables more than super LAGfests, mostly because $.50/$1 isn't that far away from my current limits, so I can't treat it like monopoly money as some can. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My pleasure, dude. I've managed to win back my losses today, which is nice. The interesting thing is that my game outlook has changed somewhat since last nights table. I seem to be making better reads and plays. We'll have to do it again sometime.

[tiltaholic]

this isn't really a blind post, so, i suck.

i think i must have gotten on the table after this hand...i don't remember it. i can't see anything other than 22 for shillx given the way he seemed to be playing (at least when i was at the table), the river action, and his posts about how waiting for the turn with a set is optimal /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

it was a fun table. i don't remember any of my hands as being particularly enlightening - i do know that whoever was sitting to my left needs to defend their blinds more.

looking forward to the next one...

[gvibes]

My first thought was 22 (even with another one out of the deck). I suppose AA and KK are possible as well. QJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or /images/graemlins/club.gif are also somewhat possible, though I can't see being the only coldcaller preflop with that hand.

Were the blinds loose? Probably not.

My final order is going to be 22, AA, KK, QJs, ATs.

[Shillx]

Some things I do at the 2+2 table...

1) Coldcall - It really confuses a TAG when you do this. In a normal ring game, you view a coldcall as a sign of weakness since people will coldcall with all kinds of hopeless hands. However when you coldcall against someone who expects you to 3-bet/fold, it does lots of things for you:

A) Oftentimes gets them to overplay their hand
B) Conceals your hand
C) Allows you to dictate the action postflop as compared to preflop

(C) is very important and what I did in this hand. So I coldcalled with AK to keep the pot small and to allow the blind to come along. I got exactly what I wanted as the BB called. When I flop top two on a fairly safe board, now I can decide on the flop if I want to raise the PFR's auto bet or not. With a vulnerable hand (such as top pair) I can raise and force the BB out. With a stong hand, I can play my position and get the BB to peel with a hand that I want him to. So with a hand like QJ I would raise the flop with hopes that I fold out the BB and then take the pot down with a turn bet. I would not be playing QJ for its straightball value as part of the idea behind coldcalling is that you can play a weak hand aggressively to get a better hand to fold. However if you are going to coldcall with hands like QJ, you also have to do so with AK/AA/etc.

Result - I had AK in this hand and MHIG. BB had AQ.

2) Limp with AT in EP - In a normal game this probably isn't optimal (limp with AT) since I can sometimes get a better hand to fold (like AJ). However at this table, everyone will be 3-betting AJ so that goes by the boards. And by raising AT in EP, the best possible outcome is that I steal the blinds. This is tough to do from EP so I decide to limp in at times with a hand like AT and here is why:

1) No one will fold a better hand
2) Someone might try to isolate with a worse hand

It is fun to see KTs raise behind you after you limp in with ATo. Everyone assumes that I'm limping with a small pair, so it is a good change of pace. Obviously I'm also going to limp with more hands at times (namely AKs-AJs and AA/KK) to mix it up a bit.

3) Open-limp on the button - Against players who will not fold, it is sometimes correct to limp in on the button. Again, the main reason is to confuse the players in the blinds. Let's say that the blinds will play normally if you raise from the button (and them have them defend). However if you limp from the button, they might fear a big hand and then check/fold the flop (the pot will also be smaller and I have position). So if I miss, I will auto bet when checked to. However if I limp with A7o OTB I would check behind on a Axx flop with hopes of getting some action. I remember one hand yesterday where normally aggressive blinds totally shutdown after I open limped on the button. So by raising preflop, I will win the blind money 0% of the time right there. However, by calling preflop I will take the pot down at least 50% of the time on the flop with a bet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hands I do this with are mainly A-small but sometimes I'll do it with AK or something of that order.

Brad

[UncleSalty]

Your ideas are freaking brilliant and I would like to have any possible newsletter that you might write cybernetically downloaded directly into my brain.

Wow. I have a long way to go.

[adsman]

Oh my, if I only knew this yesterday....

I was hoping for a response explaining your play but this I've just printed out. Great stuff Brad.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]

Result - I had AK in this hand and MHIG. BB had AQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

I rule. =)

Shillx, have you read HEFAP? After I read the microlimit conglomorate 180 page document, I'm thinking of reading it.

[Ianco15]

Thanks for posting this dude. I was having a lot of trouble yesterday at the 2+2 table. I learned that I really need to work on playing against a full game of thinking players. I haven't read HPFAP in over a year and I am going to re-read it this week. See you at the next 2+2 table.

[aK13]

Just wondering, in these 2+2 games, do you guys show your hands?

[Ianco15]

At the private 2+2 games most of us show. On the public 2+2 games you don't have to.

[Entity]

Usually AK. 3-betting the river by BB is pretty bad unless he has KK.

Rob

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
blind post:

i'd guess shill floated PF with 22.

He's not floating after the flop action and I don't think he calls those flop bets with TT. AA/KK is possible, but I wouldn't like it too much unless the BB is tight (won't see a cheap flop very often) and he'll make up the SB postflop via deception.

added: ATs is also possible, tho I'm not sure he puts in that river raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm behind the times. What does "floated" mean?