TT; TAPish Player bets into me on the flop

[Catt]

Unfortunately, I have no reads on Villain's post-flop play. Although I have a measley 49 hands on him, I have only sat through two orbits, have no notes, and have noticed nothing about his play. His stats over those 49 hands are 12.2/6.1/1.1.

How do you play the flop and why? (might be straight-forward)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (9 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero . . .

EDIT: MP3 is a calling station that will call to the river UI and call w/bottom pair but fold the river UI. No read on CO.

[TheHip41]

Well, you either have to raise, or fold. With only 1 overcard, and a flush draw out there, I'd raise. If you get 3-bet, or get a billion cold callers, then I might worry about a J.

[rmarotti]

I call and raise a safe turn. But I suck at poker.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I call and raise a safe turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...you can't give overcards the incentive to call behind you. And the SB may only bet again on the turn if he has a hand which beats TT. Consequently, If you are going to play this, you need to raise.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call and raise a safe turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...you can't give overcards the incentive to call behind you. And the SB may only bet again on the turn if he has a hand which beats TT. Consequently, If you are going to play this, you need to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind raising forces the next opponent to play with pot odds of 2:11, (1:5.5). Anyone calling with a flush draw would be correct, but anyone with a 6 outer would surely loose money in the long run.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[captain_swing]

I vote fold. You are either a little ahead or way behind the bettor. He's passive (though someone w/ 1.1 AF will bet a flush draw sometimes, I think). But a passive player easily might not want to bet a flush draw into the preflop raiser because of the likelihood of him raising out the field. And you have to worry about the other two players--callers love Jacks.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call and raise a safe turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...you can't give overcards the incentive to call behind you. And the SB may only bet again on the turn if he has a hand which beats TT. Consequently, If you are going to play this, you need to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind raising forces the next opponent to play with pot odds of 2:11, (1:5.5). Anyone calling with a flush draw would be correct, but anyone with a 6 outer would surely loose money in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your focus on the players to act behind Hero doesn't address the issue of whether it is likely that Hero will be facing a bet from the SB on the turn only when Hero is likely to be far behind.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call and raise a safe turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...you can't give overcards the incentive to call behind you. And the SB may only bet again on the turn if he has a hand which beats TT. Consequently, If you are going to play this, you need to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind raising forces the next opponent to play with pot odds of 2:11, (1:5.5). Anyone calling with a flush draw would be correct, but anyone with a 6 outer would surely loose money in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your focus on the players to act behind Hero doesn't address the issue of whether it is likely that Hero will be facing a bet from the SB on the turn only when Hero is likely to be far behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not advise a strategy in my post, only including details. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif chesspain and I are on the same page.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[StellarWind]

Fold the flop. You have three ways to lose:

1. SB could be leading with a better hand.
2. One of the two players behind you could have a better hand.
3. You could be ahead but get outdrawn because they must have many outs.

You are a big favorite to find a way to lose in this situation and playing on is bound to be expensive. Your bad position and lack of outs weigh heavily against you. I'd be more sympathetic toward a hand like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif that had less showdown value but a real chance to improve.

If you insist on playing on you must raise to protect your hand. It's really naive to rely on SB betting the turn for you with a worse hand.

[Catt]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies so far.

I don't believe the "raise or fold" decision appears as often as many others seem to think so, but I did think it applies to this hand. Raising or folding seems like a pretty close decision to me, and I am still not sure which is better absent better reads.

When I played this hand I was interested in both the flop and the river play, and how they influence each other, but didn't post the entire hand because I thought the responses to the turn and river would influence comments on the flop. So, here is the remainder of the hand:

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (9 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>.

What is the best play on the river, IYO?

[StellarWind]

Check the river in hopes that the calling station will give the free showdown. You are behind SB too often to be betting for value and a busted flush draw won't pay.

If MP3 insists on betting you can see what SB does before you make a decision. I doubt that overcalling SB would be good.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Check the river in hopes that the calling station will give the free showdown. You are behind SB too often to be betting for value and a busted flush draw won't pay.

If MP3 insists on betting you can see what SB does before you make a decision. I doubt that overcalling SB would be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

Once I'm called in two spots on the turn, and a big ugly A hits the board, I'm done. I might call a MP bet if SB folds, but maybe not. No way am I overcalling. You are probably in 3rd place a lot in this hand.

[Catt]

I agree that I can't overcall if MP bets and SB calls after I check the river. I would likely call an MP bet if SB folded.

I don't like many options when I find myself at this river. As shown above I bet (intending to fold to a raise) but after reading the replies in this thread and thinking about this hand some more today, I don't think a bet-fold approach is all that attractive. The range of hands that I beat but that call this river bet just seems very, very narrow, and I don't think a J is folding to the bet when a scary A falls nearly often enough to justify firing one more time.

Does anyone think bet-fold on the river is appropriate? If so I'd be curious to hear why.