I got one, now I need another

[dfscott]

The first cajone that I needed to grow was the "all-in with any two" cajone. When the chips are down and the position is right, it's the only option. It took a while to do it without wincing, but now it doesn't bother me.

However, the blind defense cajone is proving to be a bit more troublesome to grow. I've been using an old post by PVS (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=608779&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) as a guideline:

[ QUOTE ]

If you are in the BB, you cannot allow people to min raise you. If they min-raise, you must re-raise if at all possible. Once they get the message, they will have to bet at least 3xBB.


[/ QUOTE ]
and
[ QUOTE ]

- Don't allow people to min-raise your BB. Reraise with any A, K, QJ, QT, JT, pair, or suited connector.
- Try to reraise rather than call. Calling doesnt really discourage blind stealers.
- If you are short stack, just try to get ahead of the other short stacks and stay there. You don't need to double or triple up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I don't have any trouble shoving my stack in against a min-raise with AQ, or even ATs, but something like KTo is a different story. I just can't make myself put my whole tournament on a blind defense, since the blinds are often so big that you're only option is to re-raise all-in.

Am I taking this stuff too literally? For example, here's a hand from tonight. SB was a solid player and fairly aggressive, but not crazy-aggressive. Would anyone defend here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t700)
MP (t1645)
Button (t870)
SB (t2295)
Hero (t2490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t600</font>, Hero ???

What if SB had button's stack? Or MP's stack?

[Slim Pickens]

I think this move is all about table image. Especially if he's been SB on your BB the whole time and this is the first time you've pushed, it will work darn near all the time. People trapping with premium hands usually don't minraise, and people without premium hands don't like to call for all their chips against a tight player re-raising them.

If I haven't previously stolen against his completed or minraised SB from my BB before, I'm pushing this. Otherwise, I fold. I do like saving this move for later, using straight forward steals earlier, since this one is worth 2-3BB instead of 1.5.

Slim

[FieryJustice]

Notice in this situation that when you obviously push all in with the KT, when your opponet folds his junk hand, you will then have neough chips to push all in aganist everyone except the small stack for the rest of the tourney and easily get ITM with most of the chips.
In this situation, I would push all in with most hands...like T8 or J5s. Your opponet does NOT want to lose here. He has a pretty ok stack and he will not risk it without a very very good hand. Also, if you do get called, you will probably be about 40% or better to win, at worse maybe 30%. You cant be scared to take 4th. If you win this hand, you should take 1st because you should kill the folks one the bubble.
Having said that, if your opponet is someone who NEVER miniraises in the sb, you could easily fold. Some people never min raise and some never go all in when stealing blinds. In the $215's, if I was in this situation and this was the first time I have been up aganist this guys blind defense and I didnt know anything about him, I would push him all in simply because if he is an unknown, he probably doesnt want to take 5th. If he is a "good' player though, I would fold.

~Jcard

[Phil Van Sexton]

You really went into the archives for that one. Since I was just talking about 10/1, not everything applies to the 20s where you play now (or even the 10s nowadays for all I know).

Back when I was playing the 10s, the "bubble" seemed to start at levels 3 or 4, so you were able to make more plays without risking a 2400 stack.

At the 10s, people min-raise because they are weak. At the higher levels that still happens, but you will run into more traps.

I would say that you shouldn't let them min-raise you *repeatedly* if possible. In the example, your stack is too big to risk a confrontation or trap.

If you are in the 20s, I don't think you should take anything from that guide literally. It's true that someone min-raising you is annoying, but now you have the experience to decide the best course of action.

[viennagreen]

maybe this is a leak in my game, but i would fold or call. SB will most likely lead out with a min bet on flop, which, if i had called preflop, i would pretty much auto-call, then try to take it away on the turn with any sign of weakness.

but most likely, fold.

if it was the MP, i would always fold.

if it was the button (min-raising or all-in), i would call.

my line obviously differs from some others on the board, so i'm especially interested in these opinions.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
You really went into the archives for that one. Since I was just talking about 10/1, not everything applies to the 20s where you play now (or even the 10s nowadays for all I know).

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda thought as much, but I really have been able to find any other advice about this, and ICM and other such tools really don't apply.

Maybe I should've just asked: when is it right to defend, and how much should you defend? Maybe I should just explain my strategy and let others comment:

I generally defend with any hand I'd feel comfortable pushing and not mind being called (something like AK or 99+). That's probably a little too conservative, but unless I need the chips, I'd rather be in control than reacting (Gap concept and all that).

In the example above, I folded. I feel like it's right to fold just about anything less than a big pair or AQ (although I probably would've defended with AJ+ and then kicked myself when I ran into a pair and lost the coin-flip).

Due to the stacks at PP, it only takes one mistake to ruin your day. And I think once you get past the 11s, the players start realizing that more, so your fold equity goes up and you don't have to make this play.

I think I'd much rather just fold anything below AQ/99 here and then open-push T8 the next hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

David, in your hand, against a fellow big stack, his miniraise means one of two things.
1) a weak steal attempt
2) a hand that he wouldn't mind seeing a showdown with (or hoping you reraise with).

Either way, I don't think you should change your game because of the PVS post. In general, you are interested in avoiding confrontation, especially with the your fellow big stacks, and without a premium hand. Look at the stacks in this scenario. What are you really thinking about? Let go.....

[FieryJustice]

I am 99% sure folding here is wrong and the main reason is because the sb is an equal big stack. When the hero goes all in, the sb can fold. Also, as I said earlier, if either he gets called and wins or even if he picks up the minraise and the blinds, he can from there push around the rest of the table and work his way into an easy win. I think it is very wrong to play for 3rd. Play for 1st. I am respectfullu curious why you would fold here.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I am respectfullu curious why you would fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you can tell me the probability of times you think SB will fold, you can answer your question with math. Furtermore, provide some hand ranges for the times that he does call.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is very wrong to play for 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell are you talking about boy? Folding does not mean you're playing for third. Playing loose and foolish, is garbage poker.

[FieryJustice]

I do not think this is loose at all right here. If you think this is horrid play, look me up in the $215's...I will be making that play all day.
Anyways, this guy could be raising with anything. I doubt he would do this with a premium hand though. I would think he is on something like Ax, Kx, QJ, JT, a small pair or maybe even suited cards. The main reason I would make this play though is because I am pretty sure he would fold and when I do get called, I am usually no worse than 35% to win, although sometimes I will be the fav. Also, if I do either win here or pick up the min raise, it should be easy to run the table down to nothing by keeping the small stack in.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you can tell me the probability of times you think SB will fold, you can answer your question with math. Furtermore, provide some hand ranges for the times that he does call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the first time you've pushed against a minraise (and especially if you've folded to a previous minraise from the same player, which is why I like folding this on Level 3 or 4, but not higher than that) I'm putting his calling range on the top 5% of hands, against which you win (guessing here) 25% of the time. The +900 chips is in a fairly non-linear part of your chip utility curve, so I agree ICM isn't going to be as helpful here as it usually is. It's just a guessing situation and I say push.

I cannot understand how "play for first, not for third" or whatever the hell it is persists as an argument for certain reckless plays, although I don't believe this is one of them.

Slim

[tjh]

Two observations..

What if you find down the road that you require a third cajone ? Where will you put it ?

Too me blind defense comes down to this.
Stopping them from taking yours and getting your share of theirs. You only have to stop the thieves once. Once you have established yourself they will stay away. And when they do come stealing you have to put them on a better hand.


For example, here is a case where I had defended my blinds and they were wary of me, I should have realised this and feared them more than I did:

I was big stack of about 6,000 chips vs 1500 chips today, blinds are about 150 and they go for a minraise or pot sized bet into my blinds. I had already bullied these guys quite a bit so I should have put them on a hand. I go all in with very little or nothing and twice they have JJ, and I lose.

Although the above example seems to say "fold the hand in your example" it does not, stop them once and then in the future if they come back assume that they have some ammunition. I had cut off many a blind steal attempt from these guys. Actually I did not expect them of making a standard blind steal here so much as a desperation play.


So sometimes what looks like a blind steal is a prelude to a showdown. These players probably assumed I would play. They probably could have assumed that I would raise back. I was probably "trappable" at this time since I was the bully.

Still the rule applies. Teach them NOT TO MESS WITH YOU once , and you are going to be able to read the next steal with more accuracy. And then of course teach those downstream that they will NEVER SEE A FREE FLOP, unless of course you are giving them a breif lull in the bombing so that they can briefly believe that they have a chance.

These are the exceptions. If you have not established yourself as someone not to be messed with then you should apply the following rule "if it smells like a steal, treat it as a steal and shut them down" Once you do that and if you survive then the next attempt they make you should perhaps be a little more wary of.