KQo and confused at every street - play by play. [Archive]

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Saint_D

04-16-2005, 03:01 PM

Here is a typical hand where I got lost. I will post a street at a time. I have an orbit at most with all these guys. Typical party play, nothing wild but no reads to speak of. Full ring, Table avg VP$IP is 30.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero ?

xenthebrain

04-16-2005, 03:05 PM

Most preflop charts will tell you limp. So do I.

_bustedflush_

04-16-2005, 03:05 PM

Easy raise

just2pimp

04-16-2005, 03:05 PM

Raise

JDErickson

04-16-2005, 03:21 PM

FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

istewart

04-16-2005, 03:23 PM

I'm raising.

Catt

04-16-2005, 03:24 PM

I'd raise this just about every time. Especially 8-handed in UTG+1.

stabn

04-16-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Hero raises.

istewart

04-16-2005, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Hero raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm dude /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Saint_D

04-16-2005, 03:35 PM

So I called. I think a raise is a close call. I think I don't play well enought post flop to make it pay.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero?

stabn

04-16-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Hero raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm dude /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter dude, the comment was dumb.

tiltaholic

04-16-2005, 03:43 PM

that preflop limp is bad, imo.

i 3-bet the flop.

BriPlay

04-16-2005, 03:44 PM

call

BriPlay

04-16-2005, 03:47 PM

either (1) call and lead turn unless A falls or flush completes..or (2) 3 bet
id lean toward calling..lead turn and if raised..call him down
Brian

BriPlay

04-16-2005, 03:52 PM

i agree its between fold and limp..not limp and raise.
raising early pos with KQo is asking for it
Brian

grjr

04-16-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that preflop limp is bad, imo.

i 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 03:56 PM

Easy raise, even in EP.

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 03:56 PM

Hero 3bets the flop.

stabn

04-16-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i agree its between fold and limp..not limp and raise.
raising early pos with KQo is asking for it
Brian

[/ QUOTE ]

1) it is 8 handed
2) It is only 'asking for it' in a tough game. .5/1 with no default reads is not a tough game.

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 03:59 PM

You're honestly considering folding this hand? There is no way you can convince me that playing this hand UTG at Party 0.50/1 is -EV. Man, if you're ever playing at a 0.50/1 table where it is incorrect to raise KQo UTG, it is definitely time to leave. At he vast majority of party tables, this is a great hand to raise.

tiltaholic

04-16-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raising early pos with KQo is asking for it

[/ QUOTE ]
asking for what, more money?

KQo is a good hand. raising is not bad. i raise KQo 100% of the time preflop from UTG and UTG+1 at a loose table w/bad players. this is similar to the AJo in EP debate that comes around every two weeks. raising either AJo or KQo in EP at loose microlimit tables is not bad and is likely a more profitable strategy than limping. but fine, limp if you want.

folding preflop is horrible and should not be considered.

Entity

04-16-2005, 04:03 PM

Rizzle prefizzle, 3-bizzle the fizzle.

cmwck

04-16-2005, 04:04 PM

PF: Standard raise at this level.
Flop: I'm like 3-betting. You'll get an extra SB of value out of the SB. Assuming button doesn't cap, you can then lead the turn. Since you 3-bet the flop, button will probably call (as oppoesed to raising and knocking SB out), and SB will probably call as well, for even more value.

fl0w

04-16-2005, 04:04 PM

Raise, of course.

fl0w

04-16-2005, 04:07 PM

reraises

Saint_D

04-16-2005, 04:08 PM

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

I think the 3-bet here was the better idea. This is the exact kind of situation where I go into call down mode a lot. What would I do if it was capped back to me?

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero?

JDErickson

04-16-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Hero raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm dude /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter dude, the comment was dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you mr forum police man for keeping me in check.

I was making a point about the PF play. Folding terrible. Calling almost as bad.

Get off your high horse

stabn

04-16-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD, get rid of this junk PF

2nd best call, Let everyone see a cheap flop, you could flop KQQ and punish everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Hero raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm dude /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter dude, the comment was dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you mr forum police man for keeping me in check.

I was making a point about the PF play. Folding terrible. Calling almost as bad.

Get off your high horse

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not on one. I don't know you from adam enough to be sure that was [censored] sarcasm. There's been quite a few people giving weak-tight advice like yours in this thread.

KSOT

04-16-2005, 04:13 PM

Why would you guys reraise a 3 diamond board with just top pair? I'm sure you understand the game better than me, but please provide a little explanation.

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 04:14 PM

The only reason I'd call the flop here is to check/raise a favorable turn card (btw, I think I'd call a flop cap if I 3bet, and then call down). If you 3bet and he called you, I think you should lead the turn.

As you played it, I don't like leading the turn. If you're thinking you're behind on the flop, why did you lead? If you're thinking you're ahead, why didn't you check/raise? There aren't very many situations where the SnG is the best play, and I don't think this is one. As you played it, call here, and call a river bet.

stabn

04-16-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you guys reraise a 3 diamond board with just top pair? I'm sure you understand the game better than me, but please provide a little explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were talking about the flop.

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 04:15 PM

The votes for 3betting were on the flop, where it was only a 2 diamond board, and we have TP2K. I think 3betting the turn is probably spewing.

fl0w

04-16-2005, 04:16 PM

So my action plan in this hand would have been:
1. Raise preflop
2. 3-bet flop.
3. Call turn.
4. Check river, call bet.

grjr

04-16-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

I think the 3-bet here was the better idea. This is the exact kind of situation where I go into call down mode a lot. What would I do if it was capped back to me?

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call down and lose to the flush.

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 04:17 PM

Maybe. Your turn action depends on the flop response to your 3bet. If he capped, check/call the turn. If he called, bet/call.

KSOT

04-16-2005, 04:17 PM

Why were they posted after the turn post? The way posts are arranged here confuses me...

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 04:19 PM

If you look at the thread in flat mode, you'll see all the posts chronologically. If you look at it in threaded mode, you'll see some funky out-of-sequence-ness depending on who replied to what.

KSOT

04-16-2005, 04:20 PM

Thanks a lot!

stabn

04-16-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why were they posted after the turn post? The way posts are arranged here confuses me...

[/ QUOTE ]

View threaded, the indentation lets you know.

fl0w

04-16-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I'd call the flop here is to check/raise a favorable turn card (btw, I think I'd call a flop cap if I 3bet, and then call down). If you 3bet and he called you, I think you should lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just my thoughts.

cold_cash

04-16-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So my action plan in this hand would have been:
1. Raise preflop
2. 3-bet flop.
3. Call turn.
4. Check river, call bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I would do it. (Unless another /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes off on the river.

Saint_D

04-16-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

I think the 3-bet here was the better idea. This is the exact kind of situation where I go into call down mode a lot. What would I do if it was capped back to me?

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call down and lose to the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prophetic.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

MrWookie47

04-16-2005, 04:56 PM

Did the villain only have a flush draw on the flop, or a pair too? If not, that's worth noting that he raised a flush draw in a manner that was likely to blast out the field and be -EV. That was the reason why I didn't put him on a flush draw.

Saint_D

04-16-2005, 10:17 PM

Villian shows [ 9d, Qd ] a flush, queen high.

scotty34

04-16-2005, 10:39 PM

which goes to show why you should have raised PF (results oriented of course, but in this case, I think thats OK). The hand would have been much easier to play, and there is a much better chance you would have won (provided villain isn't the type to cold-call preflop with middle suited 2-gappers)

Saint_D

04-16-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Most preflop charts will tell you limp. So do I.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just looked this up in SSH. It's "tight"* recomendation is to raise this hand in EP. Which charts do you refer to?

-D

*Where a tight games is 3-5 players on the flop, which I find most .1/5 games to be.

grjr

04-17-2005, 03:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
which goes to show why you should have raised PF (results oriented of course, but in this case, I think thats OK). The hand would have been much easier to play, and there is a much better chance you would have won (provided villain isn't the type to cold-call preflop with middle suited 2-gappers)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did someone call me?