PP 15/30: Loose flop call.

[Jeff W]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2s, As.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Ks, 9d, 8d (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

I don't think reads are necessary here. What do you think of this flop call getting 12:1?

[Harv72b]

I don't like it. You can't really count your A outs, so you're basically calling with only the backdoor flush draw...if you're feeling really generous, give yourself 3 total outs and it's still not so good.

I'd like to have some reads, though--would SB bet again on a blank turn if he didn't hit the K?

[Jeff W]

I'm not sure about reads, because I didn't play the hand. I am reviewing this hand for a friend. I don't make flop calls this loose and I wanted to make sure I wasn't off base.

[nolanfan34]

I don't like it. How many outs are you giving yourself? Is an A a full out?

The other problem is, about half of the spades that can hit on the turn are going to make the board extremely coordinated. I just think you need too many things to go right on the turn and river for you to be good here.

I don't play the 15/30 though, people seem to indicate that it's a little nutty.

[Jeff W]

I agree. I think it is a bad flop call.

The nuttiness of 15/30 is exaggerated. It is well populated by solid players. Many people see the UB 25/50 NL and think that they would destroy it, but they misinterpret tactical aggression and play balancing for maniacal play.

[pfkaok]

Well, I do remember this hand, and I remember thinking that it was a little loose, but I thought that it was borderline with the big pot. Maybe it is way too loose, but I was figuring that my A out was worth 1-2, and my backdoor flush is worth 1.5, backdoor straight and 2 probably very minimal and I also figured that since the 1st guy had called that there was decent chance that the PF 3bettor would check the turn if he didn't have a K or better. I didn't have close reads (playing 8games), but he had a pretty high PFR, and high flop aggression, then his turn aggr was under 1, so I figured that seeing the river for 1SB is a possiblility.

Also, this is one of those spots where I like to consider table image a little bit. I figured that this was at least a close call, and I prefer not folding to an aggressive player for 1 SB after they 3bet me PF... as long as it is at least close. I already feel that I do too much folding to very aggressive players after they 3bet me, but maybe this is the wrong type of spot to add hands.

[shmahappens]

Fold, you're not sure that any of your outs are good other than the backdoor flush, and possibly running 2s /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Anyways, reads are important, is BB a player who will call any flop (like many 15/30 players), or is he representing a smallpr in call-down mode, an 8 or 9, or an Ax? In which case your fold is much easier. Unless SB is a complete LAg who hates to get stolen from (I swear some of these players take it personally) you should fold. Even in that case the BB calling should get you to let go of this. Fight another day.

[Harv72b]

You didn't have a backdoor straight draw. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I dislike the flop call a lot less if there's a good chance of it being checked to you on the turn. If you don't have to pay a BB there, then you can justify the call with 3 outs + implied.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

You didn't have a backdoor straight draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thanks... I don't know why I saw that when I relooked over the hand. but yeah, I agree that the flop call is probably too loose, but BB was a total moron (70VPIP), so his flop call meant that he had 2 cards, and probably not very good b/c he likely would have raised.