What to do?

[MobbDeep]

I don't know if I played this hand right.
MP1 is LAP (12% PF Raise).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

[nolanfan34]

I usually raise that PF there. Given that you didn't, I probably play the rest of the hand in a similar fashion.

[KDawgCometh]

I'd be inclined to raise it PF myself and would be very tempted to CR the flop since you limped

[Harv72b]

Must....raise....AJo.....preflop.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise that PF there. Given that you didn't, I probably play the rest of the hand in a similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't raise preflop, what is the purpose of betting the flop?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise that PF there. Given that you didn't, I probably play the rest of the hand in a similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't raise preflop, what is the purpose of betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right, I would check-raise the flop.

I guess I was just thinking bet the flop since I would have raised PF.

[MobbDeep]

I haven't read any book that tells me to raise AJ off from <font color="red"> early position </font>, I almost allways raise AJ suited tho.
Not even SSH tells me to raise AJo so why should I do it?
It only says that I should raise it in Loose Games and that wasn't the case.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
If you didn't raise preflop, what is the purpose of betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

But, I would generally take a check/call, check/call, bet line (assuming for some reason I didnt raise preflop).

This seems like the quintessential WA/WB situation.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read any book that tells me to raise AJ off from <font color="red"> early position </font>, I almost allways raise AJ suited tho.
Not even SSH tells me to raise AJo so why should I do it?
It only says that I should raise it in Loose Games and that wasn't the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally speaking, the advice given in those charts is for more beginning type players than you will find here. Raising with certain hands preflop gets you into a tough situation with some hands, and AJo is one of them.

Ed himself as advocated raising AJo from UTG on these forums (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1080692&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
But, I would generally take a check/call, check/call, bet line (assuming for some reason I didnt raise preflop).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, tho in this hand the two other players may have called 1 flop bet instead of folding for 2 cold. If they did, the hero should throw in a checkraise or bet somewhere to extract the value from those other players.

Unfortunately, the other 2 players were forced out by the flop raise, so it doesn't matter.

[Harv72b]

You raise AJo preflop because:

-You represent a premium hand by raising, especially from EP.

-Raising thins out the field. Offsuit big aces fare better vs. small fields.

-You gain folding equity postflop if only 1 or 2 players see the flop against you.

-It makes the hand much easier to play postflop. Limping with it makes things more difficult, as an aggressive player will actually raise a worse A in later position. This leads to situations where you are faced with either folding what could be the best hand, or paying off to AK or AQ.

I suspect that AJo falls into that grey area alluded to in SSH, of hands that have a slight equity edge preflop, but not a very great one. As such, not raising it is not likely to be a huge mistake in SS...but it's not a habit I would recommend getting into if you plan on continuing to higher levels.

[MobbDeep]

I think it's very bad to recommend SS players to raise with AJo because it causes more trouble than if you call. Remember I'm talking about SS and the players here aren't experts. Raising with AJo will only put beginning/intermediate players in bad positions because their postflop play isn't at an expert level.
So I don't understand why you guys recommend it HERE in SS.
In high stakes its diffrent...
People don't seem to understand the diffrence between SS and HS poker...

[Harv72b]

My postflop play is hardly at an expert level. But part of getting it there is learning how to play difficult hands.

If your reasoning is that AJo creates more postflop problems than a typical SS player can handle, then the advice should be to fold it preflop. Limping with it does not make it easier to play after the flop, it only puts 1 less SB at risk (and wins anywhere from 1-9 fewer SBs when the AJo is good).

[MobbDeep]

Well, you are wrong in my opinion...
If I raise in early position someone after me will call with AQ or even AK in SS, and that creates alot of problems no matter if I hit a Ace or not cause most SS players will call the flop if rags come and they have AQ or AK, some even call it down and thats not good if you have AJ.

But if I just limp in its easier for me to know where I'm at in the hand both preflop and postflop. People will usually raise with AQ or AK from middle/late position.

Reason why I didn't know where I was in this particular hand was cause the raiser was very agressive PF. If he was a rock I would probobly fold my Aces on flop when he raise or on turn if I don't hit my jack.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
If he was a rock I would probobly fold my Aces on flop when he raise or on turn if I don't hit my jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you even begin to THINK about folding that flop, then you should have folded preflop to his raise.

[MobbDeep]

err why?
please write some more instead of just coming with a comment like that...

there isn't alot of smart people here I see...

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
err why?
please write some more instead of just coming with a comment like that...

there aren't alot of smart people here I see...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you got the type of flop you are looking for, and still plan to fold.

Your fear of domination means that you are drawing to flop 2 pairs or better. Thats like &gt; 20-1.

If you plan to fold 1 pair flops, you should simply fold preflop, because you aren't getting them enough vs the odds the pot is offering you preflop.

[MobbDeep]

That makes no sense...
I'm not planning on folding on the flop if I hit a Ace, BUT!!!!!! if the guy who raised preflop is a rock and not very agressive postflop then i'll CONSIDER folding IF he RAISE me on the flop. I'm not just looking for 2 pair, thats just absurd... he might raise with JJ, QQ, KK, and then i'm good, and considering what kinda player he is he isn't gonna raise with it if I bet into him when an Ace is on the flop, also if there is only a jack on the flop I would bet and he prolly fold AK or AQ and if he has QQ, KK, or AA he will raise...

Do you never have any reads on your opponents?

Do you even play poker?

[MobbDeep]

I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[mr pink]

are you recommending the check/raise because your hand isn't that vulnerable here? meaning the only thing you have to worry about (besides being out kicked or someone holding a 6) is runner runner trips?

say he limped with something like QJs and the flop came Q66, surely bet out right?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you even play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly not.

Your play is brilliant and logic outstanding.


Is that what you want to hear?

Almost every regular contributor preflop raises here. We say that. You say we're wrong.

If you want to post a hand, and then go against massive conventional wisdom, well, thats up to you. I dont care. Im done with this thread.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
say he limped with something like QJs and the flop came Q66, surely bet out right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet out here, because we're less WA/WB (AK is not WB), and we are more vulnerable.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got several reasonable responses, and you chose to ignore them all.

First of all, raising AJo is fine preflop. Given that you limped, there's nothing wrong with checking and calling the flop and turn, and betting the river. Of course, if your read is solid, checkraising somewhere (possibly the turn) might also be ok, as he will have worse aces and sounds like the sort to call down with KK and QQ, etc.

All that said, against a "LAP" -- your words -- you shouldn't be looking to fold this postflop, and you should probably be looking to get more than the minimum number of bets in.

Rob

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you even play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly not.

Your play is brilliant and logic outstanding.


Is that what you want to hear?

Almost every regular contributor preflop raises here. We say that. You say we're wrong.

If you want to post a hand, and then go against massive conventional wisdom, well, thats up to you. I dont care. Im done with this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't seem able to go deeper into a discussion. You are just comming here with your stupid comments and when I say I think you are wrong you can't handle it.
This is a discussion forum, just because you say something doesn't mean you are right. You just can't take it that someone is looking at it from an other angle.

I think that the only thing you care about is how many (dumb) postings you can make in a day...

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got several reasonable responses, and you chose to ignore them all.

First of all, raising AJo is fine preflop. Given that you limped, there's nothing wrong with checking and calling the flop and turn, and betting the river. Of course, if your read is solid, checkraising somewhere (possibly the turn) might also be ok, as he will have worse aces and sounds like the sort to call down with KK and QQ, etc.

All that said, against a "LAP" -- your words -- you shouldn't be looking to fold this postflop, and you should probably be looking to get more than the minimum number of bets in.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a normal answer...
So this means I played the hand right, yes?
Except that I didn't raise preflop, but as I say it's not a good move in SS (atleast for me)...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got several reasonable responses, and you chose to ignore them all.

First of all, raising AJo is fine preflop. Given that you limped, there's nothing wrong with checking and calling the flop and turn, and betting the river. Of course, if your read is solid, checkraising somewhere (possibly the turn) might also be ok, as he will have worse aces and sounds like the sort to call down with KK and QQ, etc.

All that said, against a "LAP" -- your words -- you shouldn't be looking to fold this postflop, and you should probably be looking to get more than the minimum number of bets in.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a normal answer...
So this means I played the hand right, yes?
Except that I didn't raise preflop, but as I say it's not a good move in SS (atleast for me)...

[/ QUOTE ]

You may want to reconsider AJo preflop. Limping it isn't the worst thing in the world, but I've found (as have most SS poster) that my EV has increased as I've started raising it more often.

I would bet the river given your read of villain, and call a raise.

Rob

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got several reasonable responses, and you chose to ignore them all.

First of all, raising AJo is fine preflop. Given that you limped, there's nothing wrong with checking and calling the flop and turn, and betting the river. Of course, if your read is solid, checkraising somewhere (possibly the turn) might also be ok, as he will have worse aces and sounds like the sort to call down with KK and QQ, etc.

All that said, against a "LAP" -- your words -- you shouldn't be looking to fold this postflop, and you should probably be looking to get more than the minimum number of bets in.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

btw, of course I got some answers, but they never tell me WHY I should do as they recommend, and in my opinion thats most important.
I need to know WHY I should play a hand in a specific way, not just raise/call/fold/blablabla.
Also I don't see very much people consider what kinda player my opponent is, and that is in my opinion VERY IMPORTANT.

oh well, people prolly don't have time to get deeper into it, so why even bother posting...

[sub-in_4_jason_t]

MobbDeep

You should seriously consider killing yourself.

[MobbDeep]

Sure I can consider raising preflop with AJo but I think it will hurt my postflop play. I find it when I raise to much preflop I tend to get over agressive postflop and loose alot more than if I only limp.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I don't see very much people consider what kinda player my opponent is

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you didn't post a read. You posted a stat and a definition.

12% PFR LAP doesn't tell me if he'll bet KK on this turn. It doesn't tell me if you've seen him isolate with A8s or A9o. It doesn't tell me if he'd play 99 like this, or JJ, or only AK. Get my point?

Without accurate information about who you're playing, there isn't much advice we can give you. Just a general line, which states that you should check and call the flop and turn so you don't let him easily get away if he has QQ or JJ or KK. Then you bet the river for value, since he'll usually call with those hands, and will rarely raise a hand that you're ahead of. Of course, you have to call his raise because you don't have much of a read yourself (will he raise AK here? Raise ATs? Bluff-raise KK?).

There. That's the line. That's the reason for the line against an unknown.

Good luck in the future and try not to be so pushy. You came across as though you "deserve" an answer, which is far from the way it works here.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure I can consider raising preflop with AJo but I think it will hurt my postflop play. I find it when I raise to much preflop I tend to get over agressive postflop and loose alot more than if I only limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, that's your problem. Raising preflop shouldn't significantly change your postflop play.

You raise AK from EP. 3 coldcallers, SB folds, BB calls. Flop is 789r. I hope you aren't betting this flop just because you raised.

Anyway, to AJo. You should be raising AJ because opponents at these levels will call with hands you dominate, like QJs and A5o and etc.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the only thing you care about is how many (dumb) postings you can make in a day...

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have some anger issues. If you disagree, simply say so. Noone has flamed you here and I dont see reason for you to do so to others. You solicited advice; you got it. If you don't like it, fine, but I'll wager those that have responded to you probably play a bit better than you realize.

Best of luck to you.

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
MobbDeep

You should seriously consider killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your contribution...

LOL

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that the only thing you care about is how many (dumb) postings you can make in a day...

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have some anger issues. If you disagree, simply say so. Noone has flamed you here and I dont see reason for you to do so to others. You solicited advice; you got it. If you don't like it, fine, but I'll wager those that have responded to you probably play a bit better than you realize.

Best of luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This again is just a dumb post, what has this to do with my original post?
I'm not interessted in what you think of me, I just want some GOOD answers... but as you say this might be the wrong place, people here can't get into a deep discussion...

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't seem able to go deeper into a discussion. You are just comming here with your stupid comments and when I say I think you are wrong you can't handle it.
This is a discussion forum, just because you say something doesn't mean you are right. You just can't take it that someone is looking at it from an other angle.

I think that the only thing you care about is how many (dumb) postings you can make in a day...

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, you are the one who is having problems because people disagree. who cares if people cold call your EP raise with AK or AQ, there are saving you bets by not 3-betting. also, when you consider the huge number of clowns that will coldcall with hands like ATo, A8s and QJs - you are missing a ton of action by not raising preflop. it seems like you have a lot to learn around here, and instead of ridiculing the posters who are trying to help you out - why don't you try listening.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that the only thing you care about is how many (dumb) postings you can make in a day...

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have some anger issues. If you disagree, simply say so. Noone has flamed you here and I dont see reason for you to do so to others. You solicited advice; you got it. If you don't like it, fine, but I'll wager those that have responded to you probably play a bit better than you realize.

Best of luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This again is just a dumb post, what has this to do with my original post?
I'm not interessted in what you think of me, I just want some GOOD answers... but as you say this might be the wrong place, people here can't get into a deep discussion...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not a dumb post, but you're apparently too dense to derive anything of meaning from it and need everything, including how to play AJo, spoon-fed to you. But, hey, I'm game: what I'm suggesting to you is by ridiculing those who are trying to help you, who are very well-respected posters on this forum due to their history of providing good advice to others, you won't get any help from anyone .

And judging by your posts in this thread, you need all the help you can get, in poker and otherwise.

[MobbDeep]

Oh well, reread the full thread and come back again...
only one I had problems with was CallMeIshmael...
And it seems like just cause he have so many posting he has the right to say everything and everyone will stand behind his back...
if you read the postings again and think of that I had 10000 posts and all other has 10 you would have looked at it in another way...

RIDICULOUS

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
And it seems like just cause he have so many posting he has the right to say everything and everyone will stand behind his back...


[/ QUOTE ]

just for the record, no one disagreed with him because he was right.

[ QUOTE ]
if you read the postings again and think of that I had 10000 posts and all other has 10 you would have looked at it in another way...


[/ QUOTE ]

also, that's not the way it works around here. and to think that is pretty stupid.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
only one I had problems with was CallMeIshmael...


[/ QUOTE ]

One or many, I dont really care. It's funny, though, that it was CallMeIshmael that provided you a link where you could read Ed Miller's thoughts about raising AJo preflop.

I couldn't care less about your effin post count. That said, I do give more credence to the advice of those who are, as I said in my previous post, very well-respected posters on this forum due to their history of providing good advice to others (and, yes, in so doing, they get a higher post count than others). Maybe you should listen to them, as well.

But now I'm through with you. You can keep trolling or do whatever you wish. Clearly noone on this forum can hold a candle to your knowledge for poker or interpersonal skills.

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like the quintessential <font color="red">WA/WB situation </font> .

[/ QUOTE ]
What does this mean?

bill c /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise that PF there. Given that you didn't, I probably play the rest of the hand in a similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't raise preflop, what is the purpose of betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right, I would check-raise the flop.

I guess I was just thinking bet the flop since I would have raised PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see betting the flop this way and then check-raising the turn.

bill c

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This seems like the quintessential <font color="red">WA/WB situation </font> .

[/ QUOTE ]
What does this mean?

bill c /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Abbrev for "Way ahead, way behind."

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh well, reread the full thread and come back again...
only one I had problems with was CallMeIshmael...
And it seems like just cause he have so many posting he has the right to say everything and everyone will stand behind his back...
if you read the postings again and think of that I had 10000 posts and all other has 10 you would have looked at it in another way...

RIDICULOUS

[/ QUOTE ]

You singled out my comment in another thread, as well. That's fine--you ask the questions, we give you our answers, and it's up to you to decide whether or not to take our advice. I had some lengthy arguments with many regular posters when I first discovered these forums, about similar topics; I remember one long thread where I said that I didn't like raising JJ out of the BB when there were many limpers in the pot already. The people here tried very hard to convince me of why it was correct to raise JJ in that situation, and much frustration ensued when I didn't see it. Now, I look back and realize what a tool I must have looked like to those who had played this game a lot longer than I had, and I understand why I was wrong then.

FWIW, CallMeIshmael is a very good player. You would do well to listen to him; if he didn't provide detailed explanations on his suggestions, it was because he felt they had already been covered by other posters.

You mentioned being cold-called by AQ and AK if you raise preflop. These hands should 3-bet you; if they do not, that is because the other players are not being aggressive enough preflop. In which case, it is hardly certain that they will raise if you just limp (I well remember my early days, when I routinely limped with AK because "it was just a drawing hand"). However, if you limp with AJo, a properly aggressive player will raise later in the order with another AJ, AT, or even a weaker suited A like A9s. A properly aggressive player will 3-bet with AK. Most players at your stakes will cold-call with AQ, but that's why you work on your postflop play. If you raise, the vast majority of the time you will not end up dominated by a hand that cold-calls. If you limp, there will be more times when you actually dominate a hand that raises behind you.

This is about the third time I've explained that in this thread. If you still don't see it, fine--play the hands whatever way you want, and eventually you will either come to understand what we're saying now, or you will never live up to your max potential in this game. This is not some "old boys club" that gangs up on new posters. If everyone says you're wrong, it's because you're wrong--not because you're new.

Welcome to the forums.

[chesspain]

I just read this entire thread, and all I can say is that I just lost five minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, CallMeIshmael is a very good player. You would do well to listen to him; if he didn't provide detailed explanations on his suggestions, it was because he felt they had already been covered by other posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I do intend to post a detailed reply later tonight (I've been working on this other post like all day, and I want to get that done first), I would just liket to say thanks harv (and pink/jinx) for a little bit of defense here. He would do well to listen to you guys as well when it comes to poker.

Also.. yes, I have given somewhat short replies. In his other thread, all I said in my first post was:

[ QUOTE ]
Please allow me to introduce myself.
I am Johny Von BetTheTurn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit that is somewhat sarcastic, and perhaps out of line. If he was offended, I'm sorry.

But... Im not going to give a 2 page reply when the correct play IS SO [censored] OBVIOUS!!

[bisonbison]

I just read this entire thread, and all I can say is that I just lost five minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

Reading this reply will cost you another 10 seconds.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read this entire thread, and all I can say is that I just lost five minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

Reading this reply will cost you another 10 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arrgg...you suck.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been working on this other post like all day

[/ QUOTE ]

sup bro?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
sup bro?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

Hopefully tonight.

Im basically working on a way to normalize postflop aggression.

For example, if you hear that someone is like 75/x/1.2, you will often also here that '1.2 is maniacal for a vpip of 75'. But there really isnt anything overly conclusive to prove this.

Im working on a way to basically standardize a 1.2 aggression factor for a 75 vpip player to what it would be if he played an 18 vpip game.

[mr pink]

hhhhhwat?

[MobbDeep]

ok, guess everythings cool now... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm just trying to say that raising AJo from EARLY position is kinda advanced play, thats all, I don't say it's wrong and I don't say it's right.

An offtopic question:
Have any of you guys read Internet Texas Holde'em by Matthew Hilger? if so what do you think of it?
It was the first book I read and I still think it's the best. I have now read WLLH, SSH, TOP and HPFA, and I feel that they sometimes do more harm than good. But still those are very good books.
I would like to see Ed, David and Mason make a starting hand chart like Matthew Hilger did in his book. But I guess it would be to much work.
Also you can ask Matthew questions on his forum and you will allways get a very good answer. Is there anything like that on SSH?

NOTE: I'm NOT talking [censored] about any book or any person, I'm just saying my thoughts and how <font color="red"> I </font> feel about them as an intermediate player.

I'm off to bed now, goodnight!

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
hhhhhwat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say someone has a VPIP of 75, and a post flop aggression of 1.2. But, someone else has a VPIP of 18 and a postflop aggression of 2.2.

Who's more aggressive??

Well, we dont know. You cant compare 1.2 to 2.2, because the high VPIP player has, on average, much worse hands post flop.

Hypotheically, lets say two players ONLY raise when they flopped TPTK. (and NEVER on any other hand).

A tight player flops TPTK more often than a loose player, because of the hands they play.

So, the tight player in this example would raise a higher PERCENTAGE of his flops, and thus has a higher aggression factor. But... these players are equally aggressive, because they both raise in the same situation.

Basically, im trying to come up with a way to compare the aggression accross varying VPIPs.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hhhhhwat?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




[/ QUOTE ]

that was sarcasm dooder.

but i like where you're going with that post.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Have any of you guys read Internet Texas Holde'em by Matthew Hilger? if so what do you think of it?
It was the first book I read and I still think it's the best. I have now read WLLH, SSH, TOP and HPFA, and I feel that they sometimes do more harm than good. But still those are very good books.
I would like to see Ed, David and Mason make a starting hand chart like Matthew Hilger did in his book. But I guess it would be to much work.
Also you can ask Matthew questions on his forum and you will allways get a very good answer. Is there anything like that on SSH?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilger's was also the first poker book that I read, and I believe that it's an excellent introductory book for the beginning Hold'Em player. If applied correctly, his strategies will turn any player into a winning internet Hold'Em player.

However, SSH takes this a step further, and teaches you how to maximize your profits in the game. Some people, including some noted poker experts, disagree, but the aggressive style of play that it teaches will win you more bets when you're ahead in a small stakes game. It will also help you to more easily (and definitively) recognize when you're behind, and lose fewer bets in those situations. It does take some getting used to, and misapplied it can be disastrous, but believe me--the concepts outlined in SSH are generally spot on. To oversimplify things, Hilger's book might turn you into a 1.5 BB/100 winner on 2/4 online HE. Adding on SSH could bump that up to 2.5/100 or higher.

Ed, David, and Mason do post on various forums here (as do several other noted poker players/authors), but for the most part you have to make due with replies from the regular posters. I haven't visited Hilger's forum, so I can't comment on it.

[CallMeIshmael]

MobbDeep,

Since you chose to single me out as the person with whom you have a problem, I'll take this time to retort.

I feel I am more than capable in engaging in a poker discusison with you. If you read my history, I will occasionally get into very heated discussions, in which some of my posts will be quite long (just ask crunchy1 /images/graemlins/wink.gif) The reason I have not with you, is that the hands you have presented merit little discussion. The AK hand is an AUTOMATIC turn bet. Every single poster tells you this. You then come on and say that we are wrong. You are entitled to this opionion, of course. But, it doesnt make a lot of sense to engage in a discussion with someone who opts not to listen.

Specifically, folding top pair/3rd kicker getting like 12-1 (or whatever it was, I didnt count) requires such a strong read as to be nearly impossible online (probably at least 200 hands or so of almost no aggression, and some time spent watching him/her play, as stats dont always tell the whole story). You are much better off getting to showdown as quickly/cheaply as possible.

You seem to have a lot of anger in you, while also acting like the world owes you something. No one owes you a quality discussion. Some hands deserve many long thought out replies. Some dont. I'll state again: neither of your hands were that interesting.

Also, 2+2ers are people too. And you do form friendships here. Taking a shot at someones poker is fair game. Thats what we're here for. Its better to get flamed for bad advice than continuing to misplay a situation. Saying "you really need to raise there" is totally cool. But, there are some boundaries. Try not to openly insult the board itself. In general, I would assume that many here take some pride in the quality of advice given (on the whole) on these forums. I feel statements like the following are generally going to be counter productive to the quality of advice you receive, and impede on your ability to make friends here:

[ QUOTE ]
People don't seem to understand the diffrence between SS and HS poker...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
there isn't alot of smart people here I see...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even understand why I post here, it never seems like I get any reasonable answers...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This again is just a dumb post, what has this to do with my original post?
I'm not interessted in what you think of me, I just want some GOOD answers... but as you say this might be the wrong place, people here can't get into a deep discussion...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
it's to all the people who think they are poker gods and allways must say something stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Again one of those stupid "I'm a poker GOD" post...

[/ QUOTE ]


If my 'Johny Von BetTheTurn' comment was over the line, then Im sorry. It was just a joke.

There are some threads on here in which I feel I stepped over the line. This isnt one of them. If you continue to take the attitude you took today, then you will probably be met with the same types of responses. Maybe this just isnt the forum for you.

PS: in threads like these, no one cares about post count. If a newbie gives good advice, people will see. If a C/'T gives poor advice, people will flame. Its that simple.

[sthief09]

i didnt read the thread but i dont like the flop play at all

i also think youre a really good new poster and anyone who doesnt listen to your advice is stupid

cornell still sucks though even though you swept us at baseball before. i blame it purely on my roommate being injured

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
i didnt read the thread but i dont like the flop play at all

i also think youre a really good new poster and anyone who doesnt listen to your advice is stupid

cornell still sucks though even though you swept us at baseball before. i blame it purely on my roommate being injured

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks dude... means a lot from you

btw.. 'us' is columbia, right? im assuming (since it seems you are from NYC)

FWIW, discussion of ivy league athletics is more productive than A LOT of this thread (which I am bumping AGAIN)

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read this entire thread, and all I can say is that I just lost five minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

Reading this reply will cost you another 10 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]


ROTFLMAO.

[KDawgCometh]

what do you know Ishmael, you only bluff people on teh big streets /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
MobbDeep

You should seriously consider killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
MobbDeep

You should seriously consider killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

BEST. GIMMICK. ACCOUNT. EVER.

(there is such an inverse relationship between post counts and thread quality here sometimes its not even funny)

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's very bad to recommend SS players to raise with AJo because it causes more trouble than if you call. Remember I'm talking about SS and the players here aren't experts. Raising with AJo will only put beginning/intermediate players in bad positions because their postflop play isn't at an expert level.
So I don't understand why you guys recommend it HERE in SS.
In high stakes its diffrent...
People don't seem to understand the diffrence between SS and HS poker...

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus this is terrible.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure I can consider raising preflop with AJo but I think it will hurt my postflop play. I find it when I raise to much preflop I tend to get over agressive postflop and loose alot more than if I only limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should then raise AJo preflop from UTG and concentrate on not sucking postflop. Have a nice day.

[Catt]

Fixed your post so it applies to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I just read this entire thread, and all I can say is that I just lost seven minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MobbDeep]

CallMeIshmael what are you trying to say? talking about anger issues and stuff, hehe, thats just a big LOL.
You should see me sitting here smiling everytime I write something in this thread. I do never become angry in a forum discussion, for me thats kinda absurd. But then again, thats me. Maybe I should have done smileys after every line so you wouldn't take it so seriously.

OBVIOUSLY you don't understand what i'm saying.
I TRIED to get this down to a normal discussion but still people choose to post yet again "stupid" replies.

NOTE: I'm not talking about Harv72b who seem to be a grown up person and also seem to see what i'm coming from. <font color="red"> And that makes me listen to him </font>. Well you can't expect everyone to be like that.

If peoples time is SOOOOO important why even bother replying saying that it took that and this much time to read it? Doesn't that make it a few seconds more? Once again SOME people really show how smart they are.
I'm RIACH BIATCH! HEHEHE /images/graemlins/laugh.gif