2+2 tables

[adsman]

This has been bugging me for a bit. The LAG 2+2 tables that come up usually every day. It seems to me that the majority of people playing on these tables are playing like LAG's because they're perhaps just a little bit worried about playing their real game against fellow 2+2er's.

Now I know that it's all supposed to be in good fun, and I don't want to be a killjoy here - if you want to play LAG and it's fun for you, go right ahead. Except that the same people that I see writing, "That was great! I dropped 75BB but it was worth it!", are the same people who complain in other threads that they are having trouble building a bankroll, hate suck-outs, etc etc.

So why not, as well as the LAG tables, have the occasional serious 2+2 table? You play your real game. You see how you're really doing against, hopefully, good players. This would be somewhat of a challange. It might be somewhat daunting to sit down against the better posters and play your real game. I think that you would learn a lot though. I know that I sure would.

Adam.

[bottomset]

I'm not sure having 1 everyday is a good idea, since its a novelty type thing

but couple points

a. no reason to play normal TAG poker, in that why would you knowingly sitdown at the worst table there

b. many of the ppl that play have 1500+BB at .5/1 so getting hit 50-75 really isn't that bad

c. anyone who doesn't either straddle, or LRR every UTG they get is a nit period

d. getting the table to have 20BB ave pots is always nice, as are 20+waitlists

[DeathDonkey]

In all seriousness, at a table full of TAG and just plain tight players, a bit of LAGginess is the best strategy. I've played "serious" 2+2 tables and it becomes rather LAGgy just out of the fact that the best strategy is either to be a total rock or LAG it up a bit and take advantage of the total rocks.

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

It would actually be fun to play a realistic 2+2 table. The people who would do the best are the ones that change gears and get tricky in the right spots. Everyone knows how to play against solid ABC players and that style don't really work since you will get run over by people who can change their game and because you won't get paid off by hopeless hands.

Brad

[DeathDonkey]

Let me know when and where I am tricky like fox.

-DeathDonkey

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
It would actually be fun to play a realistic 2+2 table. The people who would do the best are the ones that change gears and get tricky in the right spots. Everyone knows how to play against solid ABC players and that style don't really work since you will get run over by people who can change their game and because you won't get paid off by hopeless hands.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned so much more from the serious tables than anyone will from the lagtastic ones. It definitely helped my game, and intimidated the hell out of me.

[TomBrooks]

Go ahead and start a table sometime. Specify that you want no Laggish behavior I guess. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif If you do it, note that I think the public tables work out better than the private ones. If you don't have enough 2+2ers some others can fill in. If you do have enough, they'll wind up filling it in soon enough.

[DeathDonkey]

I disagree with this, the best part about a serious table is the hand discussion. A private table is better for this.

-DeathDonkey

[tiltaholic]

I've only jumped on the "2+2 tables" recently. But there are definately 2 types. The most fun I have ever had playing poker was at a private table of 2+2ers. That session was also the most I have ever thought about poker during the hands (as opposed to the autopilot nature of playing a normal table). I highly recommend private tables for learning and thought, public LAGtastic tables for drunken fun. At the private tables,
1. the discussion is open
2. people notice what you do and when you do it, so autopilot is not really a winning option.
3. changing gears and reading board texture is important


I think it used to be the case that there was a private table every Thursday night. These types of tables are hard to fill up sometimes, since well, some people on the boards don't really relish the tought of playing against 9 other thinkers or of making their Party name known (I know I used to feel that way). And, it does require effort to think and when someone could be playing an extra table of 2/4 or 3/6 or whatever, it does eat into one's earn. So I think asking for this kind of table more than once a week is hard. And somehow it morphed into - hijack a public table every night and cap every street while not talking strategy or about 2+2. This doesn't require 10 2+2ers, and seems to be easy to do every night. Both are fun. I prefer the private, strategy/play oriented sessions for thought provoking play. But when the bottle is open...nothing wrong with a little GAMBOOL every now and then!

[handsome]

FIRST OF ALL I only dropped like 45BB, but my inspiration comes from EVneutral. If you want to be like us, just buy in with $1k and donate. It's fun, it really is.

But in all seriousness, I think a lot of people do play their real game POSTFLOP. I know there are people applying reverse implied odds after the flop when it's only another SB or two to see another card (cheap when the pot's already 15-20 sb). And then you have tricky bastrds like Entity checkraising with bottom pair on the river - these plays do work sometimes so don't think any of us are fooling around.

[cold_cash]

Way back when the 2+2 tables used to be pretty serious.

People did their best to play their best, even though the stakes were meaningless to many of them.

I liked those games much more than I like the "close your eyes and cap it" mentality of the more recent ones. (Even though I rule at both, but whatever.*)

It was pretty good hand reading practice, and there was usually some good discussion after any controversial hand.

I'm sure playing in those games helped me to become the just barely above break-even player that I am today.


*Entity sucks.

[Entity]

I'm guessing it mainly doesn't happen because it's boring.

I'm a bit confused as to why people feel that they can't sit and play a "good" game against people who are playing LAGtastically. I've done it several times and while it's a bit boring, it's not hard, and still challenges you to learn to read hands.

Personally, I play like a donk but I feel that I generally mix it up enough that it's actually trying to adapt my game, and force other people to adapt to me. When I checkraise Shill on the turn with 9-high, I can state with some degree of certainty that it seems to get me a significant number of looser calldowns in the future. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If anyone ever wants to play in one of these games, I'd be up for it, but I don't think we should have anything that says "play X way." Just say "play your best game" -- because sometimes that's going to mean raising T9s UTG, and sometimes limp-reraising with AJs and 77, because the biggest thing to remember is that playing good poker against other good players isn't ABC. That means that there will be an acceptable amount of differing strategies that would be good poker -- Cash with his 4% VPIP and me with my 40% VPIP -- depending on game conditions, etc.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
And then you have tricky bastrds like Entity checkraising with bottom pair on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I know most of it seems like I'm just donking, but the majority of the time I'm doing crap like this I'm actually trying to play the hand as well as I can, with metagame considerations for future hands.

Rob

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


If anyone ever wants to play in one of these games, I'd be up for it, but I don't think we should have anything that says "play X way." Just say "play your best game" -- because sometimes that's going to mean raising T9s UTG, and sometimes limp-reraising with AJs and 77, because the biggest thing to remember is that playing good poker against other good players isn't ABC. That means that there will be an acceptable amount of differing strategies that would be good poker -- Cash with his 4% VPIP and me with my 40% VPIP -- depending on game conditions, etc.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting replies, and I completely agree with the above quote from Entity. You play your best game. So since I started this topic, I may as well put my money where my mouth is. Private 2+2 table opened now. password is "realgame". If it happens it happens. All of course are welcome.

I really hope I'm not gonna get creamed. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Cash with his 4% VPIP and me with my 40% VPIP -- depending on game conditions, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

FUNNY.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit confused as to why people feel that they can't sit and play a "good" game against people who are playing LAGtastically. I've done it several times and while it's a bit boring, it's not hard, and still challenges you to learn to read hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thought exactly. Pretty much everybody who plays at one of these "loose style" tables knows that I am one of the LAGgiest players there. However, I am always thinking (except UTG, where I generally cap blind). I know that nobody is respecting my raises, and I adjust my raises accordingly. I know that since people view me as such a LAG, I can 3-bet fairly lightly, as they'll never believe I have TPTK or something. Also, preflop, I'm raising hands like TJs from EP, because I know if I hit I am getting killer action. If you are thinking, IMO, you can make money playing any style of poker, even (apparently) absurdly LAG. I have only ever had 2 losing 2+2 LAG sessions (out of 20-25). I know that this is running good, but I think that you can donk it up against good, 2+2 style players and still be a winning player there if you're able to adapt your style and thinking.

I play serious for more than a couple hours of the day, sometimes I just need to LAG it up to unwind, and I'm glad I can do it profitably.

That being said, I am interested in being part of a 'serious' table, and will join one sometime in the near future.