Crumpentunt's first hand post

[crumpentunt]

Well, this is my first post, so I am prepared to accept all criticism. Please instead of just saying "fold flop, raise turn" and so on, please explain why. I am learning and any comments are helpful.

Villain is 77%/15%/27 hands

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.


I keep hearing alot about these way ahead/way behind hands and how to play them. If I remember correctly, after you have shown aggresion preflop and have someone bet into you, in this situation where you're either way ahead/way behind you should call down to the river (or is it the turn) and then raise.

This way, he'll continue to bet/bluff into me, and perhaps I'll get SB to come along as well. Is my thinking flawed? Is this the wrong place to put this into practice? Any comments appreciated.

[Sykes]

Raise the flop.

[Dead]

I don't understand your postflop play. Unless Villain has an 8 in his hand, you have the nuts(save for him having AA) on the flop. You have top pair with top kicker. If he has an 8, then the river didn't help you one bit. If he doesn't, then it didn't really improve your hand much. If you were ahead on the flop, then you're still ahead here.

I raise the flop and go from there.

[A_C_Slater]

So you feel that you're either way ahead in that you have an ace with top kicker and all other aces are drawing to their 3 outers that must be higher than an 8. Or you feel that you are way behind because someone flopped trip 8's?

So with this reasoning you decide to raise the river when your K hits? How does that change the fact that you can beat trips? I fail to see your logic. You should raise the flop because trip 8's is unlikely they probably have ace smaller kicker and you want to punish them to draw to their J,T,Q kickers, etc. Bet the turn, if you get raised here then you're probably looking at the trip 8's.

[Dead]

Echo. Echo. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Shillx]

This hand is actually pretty interesting because you have two things to consider here:

1) How often is he bluffing?
2) Will he goto war with a worse hand?

If (1) is large, then you obviously played this one very well. If he has a hand like KQ, he is basically drawing dead and you don't want him to fold out. Notice that the board is drawless so you don't have to worry about protecing your hand. If someone has trips you are in bad shape, but as long as no one has an eight, you want to keep them around as they are drawing to 2 outs or less.

If (2) is large, I still think that you played this hand correctly unless he will REALLY goto war in which case it would be worth it to raise earlier. If the villian will go 4 bets on the flop and then calldown, you win 4 BB in this hand. By getting the river raise paid off, you win 3.5 BB so by getting crazy you only get an extra small bet. If he is bluffing, you will lose him on the flop and that would be tragic if he will bet all 3 streets with nothing. However, if the villian is willing to really go huge with a hand like AT then you should consider raising the turn. If you cap the turn and get a bet on the river you win 5.5 BB which is quite a bit more then the 3.5 BB you got here. The problem is that sometimes he will wake up with a real hand and show you trips. So the more crazy he is, the more I want the 5.5 BB. If he is just a frequent bluffer but not a huge spewer, then I like your line a lot here.

Brad

[ArturiusX]

Way ahead/way behind line usually works best when its a close call between to the two.

Here, its not close. 95% of the time you've got the best hand, bet accordingly (raise the flop). If hes got an 8, more power to him for cold calling with crap.

[handsome]

Raise the flop - you are way ahead of all but AA and 8x. Raise the turn - you are way ahead of all but AA, ... you get the point? Push those edges. You're not gonna be making money by just calling to the river when your AK hits. btw, this is not a good example of WA/WB.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Echo. Echo. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We replied at the same time.

I no copy you.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop - you are way ahead of all but AA and 8x. Raise the turn - you are way ahead of all but AA, ... you get the point? Push those edges. You're not gonna be making money by just calling to the river when your AK hits. btw, this is not a good example of WA/WB.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about his line is what Shill pointed out; making the most money because the guy thinks he's good throughout the hand, till you pop him on the river.

I like the line, but its very read dependant. I like raising the flop here because being the preflop raiser, I don't think we'll fool enough people. He might think we missed and are bluffing, hopefully he has Ax and goes to war.

[RockPile]

my first grunch...

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going to play you need to raise here to get more $$$ into the pot. If you are calling because you are scared he has a 8 then you should just fold cause you're beat .. but obviously you dont think you are so the right thing to do is raise. Fold or Raise.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd do the same thing here..

[ QUOTE ]

River: (8 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why'd you raise? You should have just called IMO.

[crumpentunt]

I didn't raise the river because I hit my K, I didn't care what came on the river, I was raising it no matter what. I also agree that my line is very read dependant, and as I was 4 tabling at the time and pretty much only had playerview for my read.

I had read him for either an ace or an eight (approximately 75% in favour of the ace). Given this read, I believe I was correct to wait to the river to raise. There was no need to protect my hand, and if he had another hand besides an ace of an eight, raising the flop would slow him down so as he wouldn't bluff/bet into me on the turn and river.

The more I think about, the more I feel he would have check/raised the flop with an eight. Given the higher probability that I assigned to him having a weaker ace, would it have been better to raise the flop, then bet it down (assuming he calls down with a weaker ace, which I am sure he does)?

[Shillx]

Fold or Raise [the flop]

There are lots of problems with raising the flop.

A) If the villian is bluffing, we encourage him to bluff again on 4th street if that is what he is doing. He will just fold if we rasie the flop. So we lose out on 1 BB of value if he was bluffing.

B) If he has an ace, we get that extra SB...but we could have gotten an extra big bet by waiting until the turn.

C) If he has trips, we are screwed and probably lose another SB against a non-crazy person. However, if we decide to goto war on both the flop and turn, we lose more against the trips by raising the flop.

Why'd you raise [the river]? You should have just called IMO.

Why? He will call the raise with an ace, 3-bet trips and fold a bluff. If he has an ace 60% of the time and trips 20% of the time we make an extra .20 BB by raising the river. He probably won't even have trips this often, but I think that 20% is a fair estimate here.

Brad

[TripleH68]

Raising is fun. Especially when there is a purpose.

On the flop you either dominate BB or you are way behind. (You also have SB yet to act.) Win the max, lose the min. This one is simple no?

[RockPile]

With two A's and two 8's unseen wouldnt it be safe to say 50-50 he's got one or the other, if not both?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise the river because I hit my K, I didn't care what came on the river, I was raising it no matter what. I also agree that my line is very read dependant, and as I was 4 tabling at the time and pretty much only had playerview for my read.

I had read him for either an ace or an eight (approximately 75% in favour of the ace). Given this read, I believe I was correct to wait to the river to raise. There was no need to protect my hand, and if he had another hand besides an ace of an eight, raising the flop would slow him down so as he wouldn't bluff/bet into me on the turn and river.

The more I think about, the more I feel he would have check/raised the flop with an eight. Given the higher probability that I assigned to him having a weaker ace, would it have been better to raise the flop, then bet it down (assuming he calls down with a weaker ace, which I am sure he does)?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes... I see now. If you read him as a habitual bluffer that will fold when shown aggression, then it's not bad. But, if he is bluffing, then won't he fold to a river raise? Unless, he's the "call with Jack high I have to see what he has" type?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Echo. Echo. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We replied at the same time.

I no copy you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I was just jokin.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
Way ahead/way behind line usually works best when its a close call between to the two.

Here, its not close. 95% of the time you've got the best hand, bet accordingly (raise the flop). If hes got an 8, more power to him for cold calling with crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this isn't a case of way ahead/way behind, then what is?

Lets say you bet the flop with this hand and this board and your opponent raises. Well, then there are three possibilities:
1. He has an ace, but you have him crushed and he's drawing to 2 outs.
2. He has an 8, he has you crushed and you're drawing to 2 outs.
3. He's bluffing.

Assuming your opponent is not a bluffing maniac, then options 1 and 2 carry the most weight, so it will be a choice between those two most of the time. Hence, way ahead (option 1) or way behind (option 2).

But in the original hand, of course, he bet into you. Now if you raise, he'll either call with possibilities 1 and 2, and 3-bet with possibility 3. So, we still have a way ahead/way behind case, no?

Am I just not getting the whole WA/WB concept?

[A_C_Slater]

I keep coming back to this thread liking hero's play more and more....

[DeathDonkey]

This is perfect, I can't believe everyone wants to raise the flop. Shillx already explained it so I'm not going to bother with reasoning, but raising the flop is awful.

The only real question is were you calling a 3 bet?

-DeathDonkey

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 77%/15%/27 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't this make villain a little more likely to have an 8. Sorry, I should have let this one fade away...

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm new to limit, but wouldn't it be best, assuming that he is much more likely to have an ace than to be stone-cold bluffing to call the flop, raise the turn? That way he may even 3-bet the turn (with AQ, say) and we will get many more BBs in than waiting to the river?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
This is perfect, I can't believe everyone wants to raise the flop. Shillx already explained it so I'm not going to bother with reasoning, but raising the flop is awful.

The only real question is were you calling a 3 bet?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.
i'd call a 3-bet.

what if the 2 limpers in between hero and villian had called on the flop. then, it becomes a clear raise on the flop, no?

[MrWookie47]

I think I end up agreeing with Shill here. Nice hand, and I would have called a 3bet on the river. Usually first hand posts aren't this interesting, so well done /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Now, had UTG+1 and/or MP2 been along for the ride on the flop, I'm pretty sure waiting for the river to raise would have been a mistake. I would want to raise them while they were still drawing. The question is, would you have raised the flop, or waited for the turn? I'm leaning towards raising the flop then, but I could be convinced of waiting until the turn.

[UncleSalty]

/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif(In the dark)

Firstly: Welcome, and kudos for having the restraint to lurk around, post responses, etc. before posting your first hand.

I don't think this is an appropriate hand for the WA/WB line. You are very likely way ahead, and should expect villain to have a weaker A much more often than an 8. I would definitely raise the flop here, and continue to be aggressive unless villain raises or c/r's the turn. At that point I would call down.

Again, with no 8 in his hand, the best he can do is split the pot with you if he is also holding AK. Otherwise this is yours.

-Salty

Edit: Wow, having read all the responses I think this might be the best thread in a few days. I, for one, need to stop trying to think of winning pots and focus on winning money. Shill's response is (as always) extremely insightful and enlightening. I'm going make significantly more money from these kinds of hands now.

One question though: Does the same line apply if we are OOP? (ie, would the check/call, check/call, bet line be right here?) I tend to think that if we're acting first we need to lead every street, right?

[crumpentunt]

Thanks for the responses, I learned a ton from all your posts, especially Shill's. I don't think this works when OOP, because your giving up too many bets on the flop if it gets checked through.

With 2 callers in between, I think I am still waiting until the turn. If I raise the flop, it's most likely getting checked to me on the turn and I am missing out on trapping them for another BB on turn. I could be wrong, by I think waiting until the turn is the best move there.

By the way, I know it shouldn't be results orientated, but villain had KQ and if I would have raised the flop he wouldn't have bet into me on the turn or river (got lucky with the K falling on the river for him to call my raise).

[BatsShadow]

I'm grunching for the first time. (is grunch-tarding the correct term, or is that just when you think you are an idiot?)

You cannot assume that he has an 8, so you have to raise the flop. If he bets back at you, then you probably go into call down mode. The King didn't help you at all if you were behind. I wouldn't have raised the river.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
This is perfect, I can't believe everyone wants to raise the flop. Shillx already explained it so I'm not going to bother with reasoning, but raising the flop is awful.

The only real question is were you calling a 3 bet?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed entirely. Hero played this very well. The fact that a K hit on the river is irrelevant because Hero should be raising the river regardless.

FWIW I am calling a 3-bet. Villains occasionally get out of line, so I think I have to give a crying call.

[rafct]

How would be a default play in this hand if hero had something less powerful like AJ ? just call and bet if checked?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to limit, but wouldn't it be best, assuming that he is much more likely to have an ace than to be stone-cold bluffing to call the flop, raise the turn? That way he may even 3-bet the turn (with AQ, say) and we will get many more BBs in than waiting to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop and raising the turn is acceptable here. The problem with raising the flop is that he will fold if he is bluffing. By calling the flop and raising the turn we at least get another BB when he has nothing. Mixing it up between raising 4th and 5th looks like a reasonable strategy. Obviously the more inclined he is to go nuts with the worst hand the more we should raise the turn.

Brad