McCain: A personal hero, and I hope he never wins reelection

[vulturesrow]

Senator McCain has always been one of my heros for his actions as a POW. However his actions as a member of the Republican party are just unbelievable. I dont think one has to be toe the party line on every issue but the man constantly panders to the left and his campaign finance "reform" bill was some of the worst legislation in years.

Discuss. I think it will be enligtening to see how many libs here like McCain and how many conservatives dont.

[Dead]

I don't like McPain.

I think he's a douchebag. He's a conservative on almost every issue and I disagree with him on the ones that he is liberal on, like CFR and gun control.

[Felix_Nietsche]

McCain has no core political values.
He values being 'liked' over taking a position and fighting for those beliefs. To call him a conservative is laughable. He is a populist. He is a political chameleon....

He wants the conservatives and liberals to tear each other up while he steps in and tries to play the role of the level headed-moderate mediator. His highest political goal is to be seen as being "above the fray". Since he is often a swing vote in the senate, the Democrat senators lick his shoes to get on his good side...

The McCain-Feingold law which is full frontal assault on political speech is INCREDIBLE UNconstitutional.
Part of me would like to see a liberal democrat unseat him just to get rid of his pansy *$$.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]

Part of me would like to see a liberal democrat unseat him just to get rid of his pansy *$$.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good to me.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think his actions are commendable. He dosn't toe a party line and he keeps it real.

McCain should be presidnet right now though.

[Dead]

I think his investigation of steroids in baseball is bullshit.

[Felix_Nietsche]

........bull**** and unconstitutional.
I found their witch hunt to be an embarassing reflection on the US Senate.

I don't remember Thomas Jefferson writing a clause in the constitution about the federal govt having the power to investigate baseball.

[Dead]

You don't have to censor your bullshit, man. If the censor doesn't pick it up, it's fair game, I think. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

That being said, I think that Republicans are focusing on steroids in baseball to divert attention from the problems in Iraq, among others.

The Republicans are also being sneaky by using baseball's antitrust exemption to extort information.

[Felix_Nietsche]

The only liberal democrat I respected was Paul Wellstone of MN.
Unfortunately he died in a plane crash. Although I did not like his politics he had the courage and honesty to admit he was a liberal and argue his beliefs. In sum he was proud to be a liberal and he did not hide it...

[Dead]

You know, I used to have a Wellstone avatar. It was my first avatar on 2+2. But Utah gave me a lot of [censored] for it, so I changed it.

I too admired Wellstone, greatly.

I think that his ideological brother, Feingold, should be admired as well. I know that you dislike his sponsorship of CFR, and I don't like it as well, but he is not ashamed to be a liberal either. He campaigned as a liberal last year.

I hope he runs for president in 2008.

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
the man constantly panders to the left

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but this premise is so patently absurd that it's really pointless to respond at further length.


q/q

[kurto]

My impression is the more to the right you are, the more you don't like McCain. If one was truly moderate, they would see that McCain is as well. Hence his popularity across party lines.

I find it odd when Republicans attack McCain. He seems one of the more principled politicians we have. He sticks to what he thinks is right regardless of whether it is Republican or Democrat.

Its a shame more politicians, from the left or the right, aren't as principled and willing to work across part lines.

"but the man constantly panders to the left" Its a shame when someone can work with both parties to get things done. Where does he get off. He does what Bush promised when he first took office; to stop the fighting and try to get the parties to work together.

"his campaign finance "reform" bill was some of the worst legislation in years." I would argue no bill has done enough. But praise anyone who does something to try to clean up this system where our nation is being bought.

[Dead]

If you think that McCain is principled, then... just... wow.

He's an attention whore.

[kurto]

He championed issues like campaign finance reform while being attacked for it by his own party. How is that not principled.

I'll write it off as a matter of perception.

[Dead]

I thought CFR was an assault on free speech, especially the part barring criticism of candidates within 60 days of an election. That was total bs.

[adios]

FWIW I don't think McCain has a ghost of a chance of winning the Republican party presidention nominstion in 2008 or any other year for that matter.

[Dead]

I think the 2008 Republican nominee will be Bill Frist, and he will lose to John Edwards.

[Utah]

I like McCain a lot and I fundamentally trust him. I would love to see him become president.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the 2008 Republican nominee will be Bill Frist, and he will lose to John Edwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahaha, one of the worst VP picks in recent history.
John Edwards is done politically whether he knows it or not.

[jokerswild]

Conservatives? 4 other fascists poster on this thread besides yourself, chum.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
........bull**** and unconstitutional.
I found their witch hunt to be an embarassing reflection on the US Senate.

I don't remember Thomas Jefferson writing a clause in the constitution about the federal govt having the power to investigate baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written and had little to do with it.

2) MLB got Congress to pass anti-competitive protection for them, so Congress does have some business in investigating them, much more so than other professional sports. Baseball can't have it both ways.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that McCain is principled, then... just... wow.

He's an attention whore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said basically the same thing about Carter (campaigning for a Peace Prize is pretty Attention Whorish), and yes McCain is also an Attention Whore.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I used to have a Wellstone avatar. It was my first avatar on 2+2. But Utah gave me a lot of [censored] for it, so I changed it.

I too admired Wellstone, greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked Wellstone despite his being wrong on so many issues.

I don't know if being your avatar is much of an honor, since you have a murderer holding that honor now. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[WillMagic]

I consider myself pretty conservative...and McCain is without a doubt one of my favorite Republicans, because he actually has a set of views that aren't codified in the party platform.

Will

[Felix_Nietsche]

1) Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written and had little to do with it.
************************************************
?????????????? Are you sure ???????????????????
Originally Ben Franklin was asked to write the starting draft but he declined. My understanding was that Jefferson wrote the rough draft as a starting point and after weeks of debate the final constitution emerged.....from that draft.
Jeez....don't make me google this. /images/graemlins/frown.gif


2) MLB got Congress to pass anti-competitive protection for them, so Congress does have some business in investigating them, much more so than other professional sports. Baseball can't have it both ways.
************************************************** ***
Either you believe the constitution is the supreme law of the USA or you do not. There is no middle ground. Specific powers are given to the central govt and the constitution specifies all other powers not given to the federal govt belong to the states.

The US Senate has no authority to regulate baseball.
Not that I care because I think baseball is a rather dull sport. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Felix_Nietsche]

"If you think that McCain is principled, then... just... wow.
He's an attention whore."
***********************************************
I better take a 24 hour break from this forum just to make sure I'm feeling ok. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider myself pretty conservative...and McCain is without a doubt one of my favorite Republicans, because he actually has a set of views that aren't codified in the party platform.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I live in AZ, and I do respect that about him, but for the life of me, I can't understand where he gets those views.

CFR just made the problems worse, and campaigns more mudslinging.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written and had little to do with it.
************************************************
?????????????? Are you sure ???????????????????
Originally Ben Franklin was asked to write the starting draft but he declined. My understanding was that Jefferson wrote the rough draft as a starting point and after weeks of debate the final constitution emerged.....from that draft.
Jeez....don't make me google this. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

1776, Jefferson writes Declaration of Independence, the war is ongoing

1787, Madison & others write Constitution, the war is over, Jefferson is our Ambassador to France.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Jefferson was in France when the constitution was written and had little to do with it.
************************************************
?????????????? Are you sure ???????????????????
Originally Ben Franklin was asked to write the starting draft but he declined. My understanding was that Jefferson wrote the rough draft as a starting point and after weeks of debate the final constitution emerged.....from that draft.
Jeez....don't make me google this. /images/graemlins/frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You are confusing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Common mistake.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I used to have a Wellstone avatar. It was my first avatar on 2+2. But Utah gave me a lot of [censored] for it, so I changed it.

I too admired Wellstone, greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked Wellstone despite his being wrong on so many issues.

I don't know if being your avatar is much of an honor, since you have a murderer holding that honor now. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

He was found innocent in a court of law. So don't call him a murderer.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
He was found innocent in a court of law. So don't call him a murderer.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he was found not guilty, which is not the same as innocent. Innocent is a small subset of not guilty.

I did not refer to him as a convicted murderer (a legal definition), I refered to him as a murderer (a term that also has non legalistic usage).

If someone cheated on their taxes, I would call them a tax cheat, even if the Tax Court never convicted them.

[Dead]

WRONG.

Murder is ONLY a legal term. It is a term that defines unlawful killing.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
WRONG.

Murder is ONLY a legal term. It is a term that defines unlawful killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely, you are not so dumb as to think a word that has a legal usage can not also have a common non-legal usage. Look "murder" up in the dictionary. Your're not doing very well on the accuracy front today, Dead.

[Dead]

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought


That's the definition.

You're not doing very well on the accuracy front today, BGC.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought


That's the definition.

You're not doing very well on the accuracy front today, BGC.

[/ QUOTE ]

When a dictionary definition starts with 1: that means are additional definitions to come. You left out all the definitions that you didn't like. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. Keep digging your hole. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dead]

You're a fool, BGC.

I will copy all the definitions in:

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

Main Entry: 2murder
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mur·dered; mur·der·ing /'m&r-d(&-)ri[ng]/
transitive senses
1 : to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
2 : to slaughter wantonly : SLAY
3 a : to put an end to b : TEASE, TORMENT c : MUTILATE, MANGLE <murders French> d : to defeat badly
intransitive senses : to commit murder
synonym see KILL


Get it now?

[Broken Glass Can]

Well, you just proved my point, there are definitions that do not fit in your "legal term only" standard.

Furthermore, even when murder means "to kill unlawfully" you should remember that the term "unlawful" is not synonymous with "convicted," so your original point that OJ can't be called a murderer even fails under that definition. You can do something illegal without being convicted.

You are still digging your hole, and why? To object to a murderer being called a murderer. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[kurto]

money does not equal free speech

I don't have to agree with all parts of CFR... but stopping the insane contributions to politicians is why our government is concerned more about the needs of big industry instead of your average american

[JimBob2232]

[ QUOTE ]
Either you believe the constitution is the supreme law of the USA or you do not. There is no middle ground. Specific powers are given to the central govt and the constitution specifies all other powers not given to the federal govt belong to the states.

The US Senate has no authority to regulate baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um...Baseball has anti-trust exemption. This means, they are allowed to operate as a legal monoploly, provided they meet certain requirements, and the monopoly serves the public good. While it can be argued that the anti-trust exemption should not exist for baseball, one cannot deny that it does.

The fact that the government allows baseball to operate a legal monopoly, they have the right to regulate it as they see fit. Same goes for Power utilities, and very few other industries.

Yes, the constitution is the supreme law of the land, but it is not the ONLY law. Baseball has the legal right to violate federal law, and because of that, they CAN be regulated whether you like it or not.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]

Um...Baseball has anti-trust exemption. This means, they are allowed to operate as a legal monoploly, provided they meet certain requirements, and the monopoly serves the public good. While it can be argued that the anti-trust exemption should not exist for baseball, one cannot deny that it does.

The fact that the government allows baseball to operate a legal monopoly, they have the right to regulate it as they see fit. Same goes for Power utilities, and very few other industries.

Yes, the constitution is the supreme law of the land, but it is not the ONLY law. Baseball has the legal right to violate federal law, and because of that, they CAN be regulated whether you like it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was trying to say. You did a much better job of saying it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Felix_Nietsche]

"Yes, the constitution is the supreme law of the land, but it is not the ONLY law."
************************************************** ******
True, but this point does not support your argument...
There are two types of laws:
1. Federal laws
2. State laws (county, city ordinances are subsets of state laws)
The constitution specifies what powers the federal govt is allowed to have and everything else was to be decided by the states. THE IS SUPPOSE TO BE ZERO OVERLAP of jurisdiction between constitutional federal powers and state powers. Sadly, this has been violated numerous times.
So what clause of the constitution gives the Federal govt the power to regulate baseball?


"Baseball has the legal right to violate federal law, and because of that, they CAN be regulated whether you like it or not."
************************************************** ***
This reminds me of the father telling his kids what to do because they live under his roof. 'My House, My Rules.' Sorry Charlie, but the US Constitution does not follow this model. The powers given to the federal govt are specified and all other powers not specified belong to the states....

Again please cite the clause of the constitution which gives congress this power. <Long silence>

If steroids were moving accross state lines, then the Senate could deem this a federal offence and take action. But intra-steroid use is under STATE JURISDICTION. The dog-and-pony show the US Senate held was 100% unconstitutional. Not that idiots like McCain care about violating the constitution...

[Broken Glass Can]

I'm sure steroids have crossed state lines all the time. Don't team doctors travel to Away games?

[JimBob2232]

Any business that operates across state borders -- and therefore participates in interstate commerce -- is subject to antitrust legislation. Congress has the authority over MLB because it operates across state borders. This has been upheld by the supreme court.

Every federal law we have is NOT in the constitution. Show me where the constitution contains Medicare laws, Social Security laws, insurance fraud laws. It doesnt.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"Any business that operates across state borders -- and therefore participates in interstate commerce -- is subject to antitrust legislation. Congress has the authority over MLB because it operates across state borders. This has been upheld by the supreme court."
************************************************** ********
The interstate commerce clause does apply...
Using steroids for personal use a violation of STATE law.
The baseball hearings was just a dog-and-pony-show for McCain and other nitwits to get camera time.

The interstate commerce clause is the most abused clause of the constitution. The original intent was to keep states from enacting economic laws to screw other states over. Now the interstate commerce clause is used to regulate almost everything including how many gallons a toilet may flush.

I don't think James Madison and the other writers had this in mind when they wrote this clause. If anything they wanted to ere on the side of giving the federal govt TOO LITTLE POWER. Before the constitution, we were governed by the Articles of Confederation. The articles were scrapped because they concluded the central govt needed a little more power. After throwing out the British, the last thing Americans wanted was a strong central govt. The intention of the constitution was to 'tweak' the power of the federal govt SLIGHTLY higher. Their plan worked well for about 100 years. But despite the wording of the interstate clause being UNCHANGED for over a 100 years, federal judges started 'discovering new meanings' to the interstate commerce clause. The result is we now have a federal govt which has grown in size and power that the writers of the constitution would have never imagined...

[Dead]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Felix on something, albeit for a different reason.

[WillMagic]

CFR has done a number of good things, though it has its flaws. For one, more people were involved in donating to the political process than ever before, which means that the politicians are far less indebted to the special interests than ever before.

It needs work, but I consider it a step in the right direction.

Will

[JimBob2232]

[ QUOTE ]

Using steroids for personal use a violation of STATE law.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...lets take Mark McGwire. Assume he did take steroids regularly. Also assume he got them from BALCO.

Now, what state should he be charged in? Missouri since that is where he lives? California since that is where he got them? What about the times he injected himself while playing baseball in new york? If he did it only while playing in Canada, can he be charged for that? This is the reason why we have federal laws governing such things.

I must say though, I agree with you about the delegation of power to the states and states rights. We have gotten too far away from that, and its funny you hear NOBODY in washington talking about it. But in this case I think it is warranted

[Felix_Nietsche]

Now, what state should he be charged in? Missouri since that is where he lives? California since that is where he got them? What about the times he injected himself while playing baseball in new york? If he did it only while playing in Canada, can he be charged for that?
************************************************** *******
He gets charged in the state where he commits a crime.


"This is the reason why we have federal laws governing such things."
************************************************** *****
No, this is why we have extradition laws in the USA.
If a person commits murder, flees the state, and is caught in another state then an extradition hearing is launched. The fugitive may choose to fight extradition or not.... Remember Lee Malvo and John Muhammed who were the snipers killing all those people in several states. I remember there are at least two states waiting in line to extradite them on STATE charges.

Legally and theoretically, there should be ZERO OVERLAP in jurisdiction between state laws and federal laws. Unfortunately this is violated all the time. E.g. If someone is busted selling an ounce of marijuana then this is typically a state crime. Now if the person busted was selling 100 pounds of marijuana, then suddenly it becomes a FEDERAL offence!!!??? Huh!!?? The *SAME* crime is committed and yet one is a state offence and one is a federal offence. This is 100% unconstitutionaly. There is no clause in the constitution giving the federal govt this power just because the amounts traficked are different.

[crash]

I'm a Feingold fan too. I believe I just read he's getting (another) divorce, and the article speculated that this would put the brakes on a 2008 run. I don't have a link though.

[DVaut1]

Before I make my point, I'd like to say that dictionaries are terrible, terrible, terrible, (did I mention terrible?)evidence in philosophical debates; that is, philosophical debates are often debates about language, of which no authority exists (including the dictionary). Dictionaries usually contain the most common, everyday meanings of words. Often, the meaning given in the dictionary is a distortion caused by consistent misuse of the term. Philosophical terms are often borrowed for everyday use. Most of the time the concept that word was coined to represent doesn't make it into everyday usage, and the philosophical term is then used to represent some very different concept.

Having said that, let me contradict all that and use a dictionary in an argument anyway:

When Dead noted that a component of the definition of murder was unlawful , he neglected to mention that unlawful is not NECESSARILY a legal term. That is, unlawful can mean something completely unrelated to the law. Specifically, refer to second definition of 'unlawful' in the American Heritage Dictionary:

un·law·ful (n-lôfl) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. Not lawful; illegal.
2. Contrary to accepted morality or convention; illicit.
3. Of, relating to, or being a child or children born to unmarried parents.

Therefore, to say murder is 'unlawful' is only to say that it is contrary to accepted morality; something I think we can all agree.

[$DEADSEXE$]

I've always enjoyed how conservatives threaten McCain by saying he is destroying any chance he had of be the pres nominee in 2008. They fail to realize that if he simply ran as an independant he'd win with ease.
Frist/McCain/Clinton...who gets the majority hmmm thats so tough to call.

[$DEADSEXE$]

Compared to what the executive branch has been doing to the constituion over the last 10 years..McCain and his committe antics are a joke.