Bottom 2 pair hand

[MaxPower]

My opponents here were all loose aggressive.

My plan was to check-raise a safe card on the turn, but I didn't think the 8 was a safe card.

I used to bet the flop every time in these cases. I now think there is some value in checking and calling, but I'm not sure that this is time for it.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.33 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

River: (7.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 12.33 BB

[sthief09]

I hate the flop, turn, and river. I strongly feel that you should be fastplaying the flop. you have a strong hand and a scary turn card could cause you to just call with the best hand, costing you bets. that's what happened. I still think you should've led or check-raised the turn. you have a flush draw and bottom 2. at the worst you have probably 13 outs. you still have the best hand plenty of the time.

I'd screw the overcall on the river and 3-bet. it looks like MP3 has a 6 that he slowplayed on the turn, and if MP2 bet the flop and turn and called the river, he'll probably call two more, since he's loose

ok logging off now

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]

My plan was to check-raise a safe card on the turn, but I didn't think the 8 was a safe card.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like to c/r when I don't know where to expect a bet to come from. With such a low-card flop, it seems like it could be checked through on a lot of turn card. Giving a free card after the 8s fell on the turn, wouldn't be a tragedy, but I would hate to check the turn with say the 9h on the turn just to see it check through. I suppose the LAG table prob won't check it through, but I still think playing this hand in a more standard way is best.

I would have bet the flop, but I can see c/cing or c/ring the field... I would lead pretty much every turn card though.

[KDawgCometh]

FPS all the way. Fast play the flop, and I feel you need to 3bet the river when you backdoored the flush

[ckessel]

I can see the flop play based on the goal of cr'ing on the turn. But even with the 8, I think you should have check-raised. Since this is 15/30 I just don't see decent players holding a 6 unless it was A6s or 66. It's a shame if you improve to a flush and lose to a better flush, but if that's the case you definately want to push the turn to punish the high flush draw in case it doesn't hit.

On average I'd think you're way ahead on the turn with most cards either being blanks or improving you on the river.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to bet the flop every time in these cases. I now think there is some value in checking and calling, but I'm not sure that this is time for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you Max, I am begining to check the flop in some similar situations.... unfortunatly this is a bad example. I bet out here. Anyone with overcards, a straight draw, or even a simple pair will come along for the ride, you won't have to worry about action... For now protect your hand.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[chief444]

I don't know max, I can't see any real benefit of check/calling this flop as opposed to bet/3-bet.

The way you played it I think you should still raise the turn.

The way you played the turn I think you should 3-bet the river.

[MaxPower]

I was miss-applying a concept from SSH. In the book he uses an example of flopping bottom 2 pair with T8 and the flop is Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The difference here is that the flop is lower and less coordinated so there is less likely to be strong draws out there. Also the pot is small so I can easily protect my hand with a bet.

[chief444]

Makes sense. I could definitely see check/call on that board.

[StellarWind]

You need to play this flop fast to protect your hand. Whether you can pull off a checkraise is a tactical issue, but you want to get as much action as possible to drive people out and build the pot. My default is to bet/3-bet.

The turn is a good news/bad news card but it is clear that you have way too much pot equity to play passively.

Sometimes players confuse lack of clarity with lack of prospects. There are many ways you could wind up winning or losing this hand and it's hard to be sure who is ahead and which cards help or hurt. The key thing to realize is that you'll win somehow a large percentage of the time. You have a lot of pot equity and you need to push it hard.

The flush is probably a very unpleasant surprise for your opponents. You should 3-bet the river.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]

Sometimes players confuse lack of clarity with lack of prospects. There are many ways you could wind up winning or losing this hand and it's hard to be sure who is ahead and which cards help or hurt. The key thing to realize is that you'll win somehow a large percentage of the time. You have a lot of pot equity and you need to push it hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, I like this way of thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
The flush is probably a very unpleasant surprise for your opponents. You should 3-bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. Anyone who had a pair on the flop could not have held two spades. It is almost certain that you have the best hand here on the river.

[Stack]

As Sthief09 said it so elegantly:

[ QUOTE ]
I'd screw the overcall on the river and 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a good spot for an overcall. An overcall here *could* squeeze another bet from the player who was trapped in the middle, but that about it. A cap, will certainly get that bet from the 3-bettor, and my also get two more from the trapped guy.

Unless you weren't sure if your hand was good, but I think that that would be a mistake too.