Jump in to 5/10 from 2/4. Don't liked it at all - help needed.

[Akimka]

I have runned away from 5/10 just now.
I don't like what happens there at all. After loose/passive 2/4 games that's hyperagression was surprise for me. PFR 12-15 (full table) is it normal or just 'special' table?

Here hand for example - please comment it. Would you play it same? How about CC?

And in summary - expirienced players - how would you adapt to 5/10 full after 2/4? Or may be just forget it and play SH? Or don't play 5/10 - 10/20 at all? But i afraid to play 15/30 just after 2/4 even bankrolled for it.

May be you can throw me some good links/posts - about adaptation to 5/10 up? For now i don't really sure that i can hold such pressure - high stakes AND agression (higher stdev as result) is a short way to tilt.

That's 5/10 (hyper)agression - is it normal thing on 5/10? On 15/30 is same agression?

Hand and stats

UTG VPIP 32, PFR 16, postflop passive
MP2 VPIP VPIP 44, PFR 11, postflop unknown. 9 hand on him
Button VPIP 71, PFR 28, postflop unknown, passive maybe.
Button has been noted at limp, cap raise&reraise with T8s (on UTG).

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (15.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB

[Piiop]

Why would you go from 2/4 straight to 5/10?

[flair1239]

Table selection becomes more important.

The play pre-flop anyway is generally more aggressive, but it looks like you were caught up with some maniacs.

[FoodForThought]

Why would you skip $3/$6? There is a BIG difference between $2/$4 and $3/$6. In my opinion, this is where the biggest transition occurs (on Party anyhow). I don't feel there is as big a difference (although, there is) between $3/$6 and $5/$10. Learn how to beat $3/$6 first....the move to $5/$10. Then, once you learn how to beat $5/$10...$15/$30 should be easier, but do NOT play without the proper bankroll. On a separate note...looked like you were in a great $5/$10 game based on the stats you posted.

[Fat Nicky]

first, jumping from 2/4 to 5/10 is the biggest mistake you can make. it's ok to take a shot once in a while, but from the sound of it, you don't seems mentally nor physically (poker skill) prepared for this game. I'd jump back to 2/4 ASAP, get your confindence back, then win consistently at 3/6 before moving to 5/10.

second, in the hand, I don't like the PF cold-call w/KQs in an aggressive game. There is a decent chance it will be 3-bet pre-flop, and you will probably have to pay many bets to draw if you do flop a draw, not to mention the reverse implied odds should you catch a K or Q.

I don't like the flop bet either, in this game, it is almost certain you will be raised. You want to try to check/call her and peel one off for cheap.

Turn and river standard....

Good luck!

[mute]

Why not try 3/6. It's right in between.

As for the hand I would like to see the turn as cheaply as possible, so I would just check/call.

[cassady]

1). I would have raised preflop. With a 16% preflop raiser, your hand is probably good. Can argue for a call if you're seeing a lot of these pots raised in early position still go multi-way, as the flush potential of your cards plays well multiway. Guess this one depends on the table.

2). What are you opening the betting here for. Betting into a preflop raiser on a really ragged flop isn't a bad move when used against a TOUGH opponent who is capible of the fold. This guy was obviously loose/aggressive. You're asking for the raise here, putting more money into the pot with what is at present a very speculative hand of two overs and a backdoor flush. I'd say this is terrible.

3). Turn and the river look good to me.

PS: If you're tired of 2/4, try 3/6. I find that's where players start to get moderate abilities.

[flair1239]

With that read on UTG, I would make this three bets pre-flop. I think that would have changed the whole complexion of the hand.

As played on the flop, I guess I am not entirely against the bet. I think it's value is very depreciated by the fact, that there is little laydown value to it because the pot is big and you have noted all these players really enjoy calling. But since the pot is big, that is probably more reason to bet (I am not sure how often we get an Ax hand to fold.). All that said though, I don't think that checking/calling would have been bad.

The rest of the hand is good.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
With that read on UTG, I would make this three bets pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your merits for 3-betting pre-flop, but IMO, 3-betting from UTG+1 is too early a position to do so, especially in an aggressive game. I could be wrong, but those are just my thoughts.

[That guy]

That's 5/10 (hyper)agression - is it normal thing on 5/10?

it is certainly not unusual. the problem with making that jump is that you can pretty quickly go -$100 at 5/10 without much happening and after playing 2/4, that will probably affect you.

you hear these pros say that you need to really lose a sense of what money is worth to play poker correctly... I agree. if you can't do that, you are playing too high.

but you can see that if you make a draw, the pots are huge and you can win a lot. the pots get big with so much pre-flop raising and re-raising -- then you often have odds to peel one off... which turns into calling 2 when it gets raised again behind you on the flop... all of a sudden, you are in for 5 small bets with your AJs... repeat this a few times and you can quickly be down -$100 or -$125... then you win a pot and you are up a few bucks. just a matter of getting used to it.

just don't go thinking that a guy who reraises you has only (AA-JJ or AK). yes, he will have that once in a while but often he is just trying to take control of the pot and will slow down after the preflop and flop scare-tactics.

You are not playing Chan and Negreanu at 5/10... just wait for good spots and ride the roller coaster that is limit hold em...

[MoreWineII]

There's a huge difference from 3/6 to 5/10. I can't imagine going from 2/4 to 5/10. Play 3/6, you'll thank yourself later.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
With that read on UTG, I would make this three bets pre-flop. I think that would have changed the whole complexion of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck.

[SeaEagle]

Even if your skills are strong enough to play at the higher levels, it takes some time to get used to the bigger amounts of money at risk. Even with the proper bankroll, jumping to a table that's 2 1/2 times the stakes you're used to is sure to give you a little sticker shock and impact the way you play. I'd recommend at least a little time at 3/6 before moving to 5/10.

[Akimka]

Awesome. Thank you guys for great input. But first - i havent moved to 5/10 - i just have a 400 hands peek about what is it looks like and i don't liked it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Advise about 3/6 is accepted and will be used. The only reason why i got shot on 5/10 is i thinked that 5/10 is lot easier than 3/6.

I had rumors that 15/30 is even easier than 2/4 - isn't it true? I thinked that way because:

a) fat fishes are certanly went to 15/30 rather than 1/2
b) i have lot of friend who making good money on 15/30 even without pokertracker and playerview!!! I think it's a very strange and idea that 15/30 is more beatable than 2/4 comes into my mind. Alas! please disappoint me before i put all my hard 2/4 winnings on 15/30 tables /images/graemlins/smile.gif

c) some of guys from our Russian local forum (peter_rus for example) and others beating 15/30 out of s..t (for 3-4BB/100) and i thought that if very good player can have this winrate - i can do it for 1BB at least.
Please say me that i'm not right.

Because after looking for great success of my friends i coming to mind that i definatly losing my money on 2/4 having 9K of bankroll and still playing 2/4 instead of 15/30. I saying all the way that i NEED self-confidence about 2/4 and than may be i can play 3/6.

But i'll repeat to myself - no more 15/30-ing s..t before i got 50K hands of 3/6 on my tracker.

Thank you again guys. 2+2 does for me that no one can do.

[sfer]

I think everyone on 2+2 should respond and suggest that Akimka give 3/6 a shot before 5/10.

[That guy]

I still remember 2/4 being a cakewalk compared to 3/6... now 3/6 seems like a cakewalk compared to 5/10...

the point is that it takes a while to adjust your game to the new 'typical' player (more re-raising from lighter and lighter hands, better post-flop play, getting big hands paid off less on the end, bigger bankroll swings etc...)

[cassady]

Given that UTG is a 16% preflop raiser, you still don't like the raise here?

Why not?

[Bob T.]

Like everyone else in this thread, I am wondering why you don't play 3-6 for awhile.

I remember when I moved up to 3-6, and could barely handle the increased aggression there.

Now, I mostly play 5-10, and 10-20, and occasionally drop down to 3-6 when I am at my desk doing something else, or sometimes I play it on the smaller sites, when there aren't any good games higher.

Even though I used to think it was very aggressive, now I find it to be a very passive, and organized game compared to 5-10. I think you need to play 3-6 for a while and get acclimated to that game, before you make the jump to 5-10.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With that read on UTG, I would make this three bets pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your merits for 3-betting pre-flop, but IMO, 3-betting from UTG+1 is too early a position to do so, especially in an aggressive game. I could be wrong, but those are just my thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I look at it, is I really would like to play this hand. I can't see folding, especially considering the raiser.

I think raising has some benefits that calling does not here. For instance calling, a hand like 77-99 might come in. Also the weaker off-suit ace hands (and some hands like AJs, ATs) should probably fold.

But I think it is worth a shot to keep this pot HU or shorthanded.

[MoreWineII]

Bob, maybe this isn't the place for it, but what can you tell me about 10/20 compared to 5/10? Planning on making the jump in the not-so-distant future.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Given that UTG is a 16% preflop raiser, you still don't like the raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's UTG and 16% is high, but not exceptional. My PFR is ~14-15% and I can assure you I want you getting involved with my UTG raises with KQs. You're not ahead of the range of hands he could have and the entire table is behind you with who knows what.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With that read on UTG, I would make this three bets pre-flop. I think that would have changed the whole complexion of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me with the yuck. Not being sarcastic.

Because at this point this is almost a automatic three-bet for me (against a player like this.). I would not feel good CC here.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given that UTG is a 16% preflop raiser, you still don't like the raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's UTG and 16% is high, but not exceptional. My PFR is ~14-15% and I can assure you I want you getting involved with my UTG raises with KQs. You're not ahead of the range of hands he could have and the entire table is behind you with who knows what.

[/ QUOTE ]

But his PFR is also 32%. I would guess that his raising standards and yours are fairly different. (ie you take into account position, table texture etc; I would guess he just has certain hands he raises from anywhere.)

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG VPIP 32, PFR 16, postflop passive

[/ QUOTE ]

[flair1239]

yeah had a typing brain fart.

[That guy]

16% PFR is misleading when the guy is UTG.

depending on the player, a 16% PFR is probably a player who raises top 5-8% of his hands from EP.

in that range, KJ-s is the only hand your KQ-s is really ahead of (fair fight vs AT-s &amp; AJ &amp; JJ)...

[Bob T.]

Generally, it is like every step up. More aggression, thinner edges, and smaller mistakes by your opponents.

If you are playing on party, game selection is very important. It's the game that noone plays, so it is populated by reasonable people making the move up frm 5-10. You need to find good games, and good situations within those games for the games to be profitable. A lot of times you will find games with avg pot sizes in the 4-5 BB range. Which game do you think is more profitable, an $80 5-10 game, or a $90 10-20 game?

On party, it seems that by far the most 10-20 players play the 6-max game, so if you are going to chase the weakest players, you need to go eventually go there, after you get used to the stakes. That is a transition that I am planning on making within the next couple of months, assuming that I run well over that time.

I actually like the games on the smaller sites, where you are frequently playing against a lot of the same players that you see at 5-10, so it is just a matter of being at higher stakes, but the player pool is pretty much the same.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not feel good CC here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like coldcalling either.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you go from 2/4 straight to 5/10?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Tungus]

I know Akimka.He is a good player.I I think he had afraid big aggrresiion.But i think he beat all on this stake.after
3/6 after one month.

[DocMartin]

I havent taken any shots at PP 5/10 yet but I am about halfway through my expected stint at 3/6. I cant imagine making the jump from the soft 2/4 now that I have played about 10K hands at 3/6. There are better players there than at 2/4 and I am happy with the experience it has given me for taking on tougher games. I also plan on playing a lot more shorthanded (party and elsewhere) to get ready for the juicy 5/10 6-max I keep hearing about.

What's the big hurry, 5/10 will still be there after you play a lot of hands at 3/6.

Good luck and I hope you learned something after your shot at 5/10 that will help you prepare for it later.