I know my flop call is bad, but how bad

[djoyce003]

No preflop comments please, i'm fine with the call, regardless of common opinion. I'm curious about the thoughts on the flop. I flopped a double gutter. I called the first bet and when it came back likely to be capped, i considered folding, but I thought the odds were close to decent enough for the call, and I thought implied odds might be great. My plan was to lead any river that didn't pair the board as it was fairly obvious i was up against a set.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP calls, Button calls.

River: (22.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 25.70 BB

[hypermegachi]

SOP for me...(sweet i learned how to use SOP!!)

[ravballz]

I like the preflop call less than the flop call /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Other than that you have a draw to the nut straight. In fact I'm sure I'd call the flop too and then slow down and look at the action if the board paired.

[cjx]

[ QUOTE ]
No preflop comments please, i'm fine with the call, regardless of common opinion. I'm curious about the thoughts on the flop. I flopped a double gutter. I called the first bet and when it came back likely to be capped, i considered folding, but I thought the odds were close to decent enough for the call, and I thought implied odds might be great. My plan was to lead any river that didn't pair the board as it was fairly obvious i was up against a set.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the only thing in the hand TO talk about is the preflop call.

[Jeffage]

I don't see where you're going on the flop since you have a double gutter to the nuts.

Jeff

[chief444]

djoyce,

Why would you consider folding the flop with 8 outs to the nut hand? I play this one the same.

Chief

[Grisgra]

Preflop I want one more person in before I call in the BB, especially since I'm not closing the action, but it's not tragically bad. You are getting 7:1 to see a flop.

On the flop, even if someone has a set and a straight might not end up being good if they fill up, I'm not going ANYWHERE when it comes around with two back to me, even I think it's going to be capped. Huge action flop -- looks like someone has two pair, another person maybe with AK, if you hit you're going to get paid off. (Nice turn! /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[djoyce003]

In regards to my call. I feel like calling 5 to win 27 is ok here with connecting cards. I get out if I don't hit anything strong. I do not fold my BB to position raises unless it is unconnected, unsuited, and crappy, 72 93, j2, etc.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (8.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

The difficulty in playing this flop is your position, obviously. Leading may get some folds from people who mostly missed and who fear a squeeze from the button (particularly given that an ace flopped). On the other hand, what can you do about this position other than sit back and hope the button bets your hand for you and that you get overcalls? I dont really like this latter line, because while you were lucky to have gotten the check-raise, there's no guarantee that it would play out this way. So my preference is mildly in favor of just leading the flop and hoping that players between you and the button call given the size of the pot. Once you've played it the way you did, the initial overcall is fine, but when it was check-raised and 3-bet back to me, I would definitely cap it for value. Nobody with anything remotely resembling a playable hand is folding--even for two bets cold--at that point, and in a multiway rainbow flop like this, you have the odds to cap it, even OOP.

[cartman]

If you assume that it will get capped behind you and the button will call and you will call, that means that you are getting 18.4 to 3 odds if you want to continue (at the time that you have to call the raise and the reraise). In my opinion folding an 8 out draw to the nuts with those odds (not to mention the HUGE implied odds) would be an epic mistake!

Cartman

Cartman

[djoyce003]

laugh, well i guess that the call was fine then. I thought it was marginal, but ok.

[BottlesOf]

Bet the flop yourself. Second time around, you're getting over 7.5:1 by my quick count, no chance I'm folding.

[jfresh]

folding would be bad on the flop i think. especially with board rainbow like that. you know all your outs are 100% good.