selective passivity out of the BB

[cnfuzzd]

Button is super donk. other two are little donklings. Serious. Thats my read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (3.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 7.16 BB, between Hero and Button.</font>

thoughts?

for the record, i thought about checkraising the river, but decided that was pushing it too far.

peace

john nickle

[adamstewart]

Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?



Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).


Adam

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?



Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

[elindauer]

With this highly vulnerable hand, you must raise the flop if you choose to play.

Good luck.
Eric

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?



Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

[/ QUOTE ]


To be honest, I didn't notice the flush draw when I initially read the hand.

In this situation, if Hero led the turn, and was raised, he'd be getting 6:1 to call. He has 9 outs to a flush, but we should discount them to about 4 outs for the times he makes the flush but still loses to a higher flush, or boat, or quads.

I don't give any outs for the Hero hitting an 8, as I feel that would be negligable given the overpaired Kings on board.

I give 1 out for hitting one of the two 3 threes.

That gives us 5 effective outs. Not enough to call a turn raise.


Note: the pot odds would be slightly different had Hero raised the flop, but I still don't think it would work out the enough to call a turn raise.


Adam

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
With this highly vulnerable hand, you must raise the flop if you choose to play.


[/ QUOTE ]

With emphasis on "if."

[Piiop]

If you checkraised the river, and he called you and showed something like Q9 - that would be sweet.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?



Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

[/ QUOTE ]


To be honest, I didn't notice the flush draw when I initially read the hand.

In this situation, if Hero led the turn, and was raised, he'd be getting 6:1 to call. He has 9 outs to a flush, but we should discount them to about 4 outs for the times he makes the flush but still loses to a higher flush, or boat, or quads.

I don't give any outs for the Hero hitting an 8, as I feel that would be negligable given the overpaired Kings on board.

I give 1 out for hitting one of the two 3 threes.

That gives us 5 effective outs. Not enough to call a turn raise.


Note: the pot odds would be slightly different had Hero raised the flop, but I still don't think it would work out the enough to call a turn raise.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree he doesn't have odds to call a turn raise. I meant just C/call the turn being the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell. Only because of the way Hero played it so far. I would have preferred to raise the flop THEN lead the turn. Now you could say that by C/R the turn (being he didn't raise flop)Hero is representing an A. Problem is Villian could have easily bet the flop with Ace high.

The more I write the more I realize we're not looking so good here. Villian's likely holdings:
Ace= Bad
K = Bad
PP = Bad
What else except a pure bluff?

Without raising the flop we have no option but to play passively and try for the flush and if the turn ace had been another other flavor we fold right there. unless you can assign villians a large % that he is bluffing.

Is my thinking flawed here??

EDIT: Well I guess by C/R the turn and representing an A or K we could POSSIBLY push Villian off a PP.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
If you checkraised the river, and he called you and showed something like Q9 - that would be sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adamstewart]

Ace is a scare card.

Leading the turn may win the pot right there.


Adam

[chief444]

Did you consider betting the river?

[marching_on_together]

Looks like you went for the worst of your 3 options on the flop.

I would probably bet the turn and check the river unimproved.

I don't think you win this 1in 7 times on the river

[rmarotti]

A full house against a super donk? I think john's good here about 1 in 4 times.

[cnfuzzd]

to those who say to c/r the flop, i can only claim that i was negligent in my read description. If these guys are going to call, wether because they have a piece of the board or a pp, they are going to do it for one bet or two. If they dont have some sort of hand, they would most likely fold for one as likely as two. If i get called after i checkraise, im usually folding the turn, and if i get an overcall behind me when i dont raise, im folding the turn just as often. I dont think this hand is worth protecting, but im willing to float and see if i get HU vs the absolute donk of all donks.

As for the turn. I this hadnt been a diamond, i probably would have c/folded. The ace is very bad for me, as donks love to bet a high. however, my flush draw hu is going to be good a lot more times than i think adam is giving it credit for. This gives me just enough equity, imo (without doing any math whatsoever) to feel ok about the times im behind to either a king, an A, or a pp. im floating on to the river.

Sweet, i know have the 92nd nut full house!!!! RAWK!!! Anyway, the king falling made it very unlikely that villian was betting a king. The A possibility was still there, but i know felt it was highly probably that villian had been betting a three, or a complete bluff, the whole way through, given his donkness. However, i think checkraising this was too much for two reasons. 1) Villian is never folding a better hand. If i am behind to a small pp, a raise will never win me the pot. If he is bluffing, he may not call, and if we are splitting, he will always call. Didnt seem like a raise made me much money. 2) Villian is a donk, and i think he would randomly find it in his little donk heart to 3bet me with a hand i beat. Or a hand that beats me. But i could never fold to this three bet, especially given the especially passive way i played the hand. So, check-call it is.

I did think about betting the river, but seemed like he would raise hands that beat me usually, and soemtimes fold hands that i beat. I thought the check call was awesome.

peace

john nickle

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you consider betting the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think betting the river will get a better hand to fold or get a worse one to call.

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think this hand is worth protecting...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are ahead, any card over 3 beats you on the turn or river. Donks don't fold when their 4 or 7 or whatever hits on this board.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is super donk.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he pays off with a middle pair or flush. I'm not saying it's the best line. But it crossed my mind as a possibility and I hadn't seen it mentioned.

Never mind...I was thinking it was the 3 that paired not the third K.

[cnfuzzd]

superdonk had 64o for the non-nut nothing

i read g00t /images/graemlins/grin.gif

peace

john nickle