Heads up play [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 04:16 AM

PokerRoom 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: is with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif .
1 fold, BontJamesBon raises, 7 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, BontJamesBon calls.

Turn: (2.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, BontJamesBon bets, BB calls.

River: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, BontJamesBon bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Who likes waiting for the turn?

scotty34

04-15-2005, 04:21 AM

Looks like a bit of a converter error, I'm assuming from your tone that you raised the flop. That's my line as well I think. He may be semi-bluffing with two hearts or have a PP or lower J. I really doubt he is folding right here, so I like the raise. Also, you really don't want to be 3-bet on the turn, so if it's 3-bet back to you on the flop, you can slow down.

DeathDonkey

04-15-2005, 04:29 AM

I like it, too bad he foiled your turn raise plan. Rest is easy of course.

-DeathDonkey

pistol78

04-15-2005, 04:38 AM

Not me. I actually like raising the flop.

1. If by some chance he has a heart I want to charge some more now.

2. If he has a J he isnt goping anywhere.

3. Recently I have found that my opponents interpret my flop raise as an unimproved AK or a free card play and will lead on the turn, allowing me to raise them again

I had a hand like this, I believe I had QT flop came Q5T he bet i raised, turn came a brick, he bet i raised, river came a brick he bet i raised he called MHIG.

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I had a hand like this, I believe I had QT flop came Q5T he bet i raised, turn came a brick, he bet i raised, river came a brick he bet i raised he called MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anecdotes like this really prove nothing. For example: today I coldcalled preflop with 68o and hit a straight to win a 15BB pot. That doesn't mean it's the right play.

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 04:44 AM

By the way, the real reason I play it this way is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. If I raise, overcards are going to call for one more, so by calling I'm waiting for the turn card to see how I play.

Charging the hearts? Why? So they don't get the odds to play on? Implied odds will more than make up for that. Suppose he does have a flush, if he hits it on the turn I've still got 13 outs to beat him, thats even if he has a flush.

And if he has a J, chances are he'll slow down on the turn if I pop him on the flop.

By waiting for a good turn card, I can reasses and trap him for more bets than a turn raise could. In other words, a flop call gives me more options, steals more bets off him, and allows me to get away from my hand cheaper.

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, the real reason I play it this way is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. If I raise, overcards are going to call for one more, so by calling I'm waiting for the turn card to see how I play.

Charging the hearts? Why? So they don't get the odds to play on? Implied odds will more than make up for that. Suppose he does have a flush, if he hits it on the turn I've still got 13 outs to beat him, thats even if he has a flush.

And if he has a J, chances are he'll slow down on the turn if I pop him on the flop.

By waiting for a good turn card, I can reasses and trap him for more bets than a turn raise could. In other words, a flop call gives me more options, steals more bets off him, and allows me to get away from my hand cheaper.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like all of this.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 04:47 AM

True but replying to them does nothing either. Commenting on the strategy they recomend might prove to be more insightfull.

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
True but replying to them does nothing either. Commenting on the strategy they recomend might prove to be more insightfull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ba-ZING... NH. I was basically to lazy to type my thoughts out, and knew that Arturius or DD would do it for me. Thankfully arturius did...His analysis of this hand is very sound.

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 04:50 AM

Just a tip for the newer players, master heads up and you're 75% towards being a winning poker player. It takes a lot of experience, but the thinking involved and the cat and mouse games really sharpen you up.

Playing the odds with draws are boring hands, and dont teach you poker. Playing for big pots don't teach you poker. They teach you how to see monsters. Heads up everythings a lot tighter, thus really test your skills.

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I had a hand like this, I believe I had QT flop came Q5T he bet i raised, turn came a brick, he bet i raised, river came a brick he bet i raised he called MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anecdotes like this really prove nothing. For example: today I coldcalled preflop with 68o and hit a straight to win a 15BB pot. That doesn't mean it's the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, I didn't mean for this to sound dickish... which I guess it kind of did. Sorry.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 04:51 AM

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 04:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Ba-ZING... NH. I was basically to lazy to type my thoughts out, and knew that Arturius or DD would do it for me. Thankfully arturius did...His analysis of this hand is very sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop relying on us you lazy mug /images/graemlins/cool.gif

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:54 AM

If he has a J, we get an extra SB by waiting for the turn. Also, if he has OCs, we give him the opportunity to bluff again, where if we raise the flop, he will fold the turn UI. This also results in an extra SB.

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ba-ZING... NH. I was basically to lazy to type my thoughts out, and knew that Arturius or DD would do it for me. Thankfully arturius did...His analysis of this hand is very sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop relying on us you lazy mug /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...I already feel like (am) a tool for racking up as many posts as I do in such a short time period.

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 05:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I understand but what I am saying is this,
1. Dont think that a J is folding here. If he has a J he is calling all the way. Rarely have I ssen a player fold TP in HU play.
2. What if he checks the turn like he did in this hand, then you lose the oppurtunity to raisee dont you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Alrighty, lets put ourselves in the villians shoes.

You have JTo blacks, you call in the BB.

You see the flop. Obviously you hit it, its unlikely a pfr has a 7, so you bet. I now see the preflop raiser raise my bet. What do I think?

a) He could have a better jack (AJ as I did have, KJ, QJ)
b) Or a better pocket pair (AA, KK, QQ)

If I'm weak, I call down from here, unless the board gets really scary. If I'm super aggressive, I 3-bet. Now if the pfr with AJ raises, he'll probably cap (I know if I raised, I'd cap).

Now I have a turn decision to make. When capped with a J, check-call will probably be the play. That means the guy with JTo will have invested 4bb post flop into my bank account this hand.

Now lets zip over to if I called instead. Ok, turn, he only called, I'm going to pop him again. Bet. Now wait, I've been raised on a blank, [censored]. So I call, and call the river. I've invested 3.5 BB.

So the difference between the raise play is .5 BB, and thats ONLY IF HE 3-BETS ME, which he might not (because poker players are weakies in general).

Now this is a lot of writing, but Im just trying to explain. Now in other scenarios, when he has the 7, or the flush, its much better to call and wait for the turn, because obviously we can reassess our outs, make judgement to his aggression, and gain more control over the hand.

So in short, we always have Jx covered, but the flop isnt going to win us much more.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 05:35 AM

I can really appreciate this reasoning and I am glad you took the time to write it out. But let me ask you this, Have you ever been involved in a HU pot where you made TP bet and where riased by the PFR? I am sure you have so what do you do. ALso, assume that your TP stay as such throughout the hand. Are you folding on the river after the turn raise?

Assuming this situation lets see some possible outcomes.

1. FLop comes villain bets JT you call, Turn he bets, you raise he calls, he checks, you bet he folds. (2.5BB)

2. Flop, villain bets you call, turn he bets you raise he calls and calls your river bet (3.5BB)

3. Flop villain bets you call, trun he check/calls, river he check/calls (2.5BB)

4. Flop villain bets you raise he calls, turn he check/calls, river he check/calls. (3BB)

I obviously would also like the number 2 outcome but he really needs to be weak for it to happen. I just think that option four which yields you 3BB is a better way to get more money from players like this HU over the long haul. As you said A turn raise says "Ha you are mine" but you run the risk of losing him on the river. Whereas a flop rasie might not make him flinch and he mioght even call you all the way down with JT.

Is my logic wrong here?

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can really appreciate this reasoning and I am glad you took the time to write it out. But let me ask you this, Have you ever been involved in a HU pot where you made TP bet and where riased by the PFR? I am sure you have so what do you do. ALso, assume that your TP stay as such throughout the hand. Are you folding on the river after the turn raise?

Assuming this situation lets see some possible outcomes.

1. FLop comes villain bets JT you call, Turn he bets, you raise he calls, he checks, you bet he folds. (2.5BB)

2. Flop, villain bets you call, turn he bets you raise he calls and calls your river bet (3.5BB)

3. Flop villain bets you call, trun he check/calls, river he check/calls (2.5BB)

4. Flop villain bets you raise he calls, turn he check/calls, river he check/calls. (3BB)

I obviously would also like the number 2 outcome but he really needs to be weak for it to happen. I just think that option four which yields you 3BB is a better way to get more money from players like this HU over the long haul. As you said A turn raise says "Ha you are mine" but you run the risk of losing him on the river. Whereas a flop rasie might not make him flinch and he mioght even call you all the way down with JT.

Is my logic wrong here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that your logic is wrong here, or if it is, it's not wrong by much at all. The problem with it is, we don't KNOW that villain has TP. The other options all make more money when villain has an underpair, overcards, or a draw.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 05:49 AM

Yes, assuming however he calls to the river after we turn raise him. My argument is that a turn raise gives up to much and we might lose him, whereas a flop raise really doesnt give up our hand completly.

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 05:50 AM

I think out of the possible BB hands (and there's a lot), another jack probably isn't a likely scenario. There's the same chance he has another 7 to be honest.

We need to know where we're at so we can focus on extracting the most money. You're looking from the jack angle I understand, but as I pointed out, the jack is such a small possibility, I don't think losing .5BB or even 1-2BB if he does should change my line for this hand.

I'm exploiting the situation to trap him for the most bets on his range of hands, and having me pay the least if he has me.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think out of the possible BB hands (and there's a lot), another jack probably isn't a likely scenario. There's the same chance he has another 7 to be honest.

We need to know where we're at so we can focus on extracting the most money. You're looking from the jack angle I understand, but as I pointed out, the jack is such a small possibility, I don't think losing .5BB or even 1-2BB if he does should change my line for this hand.

I'm exploiting the situation to trap him for the most bets on his range of hands, and having me pay the least if he has me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that If he bets the turn, you raise and he re-raises, you are putting him on a 7 and folding?

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 05:56 AM

so, what if hero is behind on the flop?

peace

john nickle

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 05:58 AM

If its a heart, we have outs on a 7.

It would also depend on the turn card, suppose its a trey of clubs though, I'd call the 3-bet and call the river. I'm confident though that my play is EV+ because I'll make more money from a larger percentage of hands on the turn.

Also no, I'm not folding anywhere. HUSH would have me banned if I folded that hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If its a heart, we have outs on a 7.

It would also depend on the turn card, suppose its a trey of clubs though, I'd call the 3-bet and call the river. I'm confident though that my play is EV+ because I'll make more money from a larger percentage of hands on the turn.Also no, I'm not folding anywhere. HUSH would have me banned if I folded that hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So in essence, if you are not folding this hand anywhere then raising the turn could possiblly make you pay the maximum.

For the sake of argument, assume he has a 7

1. FLOP: He bets you call, TURN: He bets you raise he reraises you call, RIVER:He bets you call.(assuming you dont improve) total loss to you = 4.5BB

2, FLOP: HE bets you raise, he re-raises you call, TURN Bet/Call RIVER Bet Call Total loss = 3.5BB

3. FLOP: He bets, you raise He calls, TURN: he checks you bet he raises you call RIVER Bet/CALL. TOTAL LOSS 4BB

You are losing more by raising the turn, if you are behind.

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 06:13 AM

why not a call call bet line, or conversely, calling until checked to, then betting. standard way ahead/ way behind line.

peace

john nickle

jaxUp

04-15-2005, 06:14 AM

I think that the biggest problem that you are having in understanding the play in this hand is that you are overestimating the likelihood that he will have a J or a 7 here.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:18 AM

On the contrary, I am not. What I am saying is that if he has a J and we rasie the flop it is most likely for him to call all the way down with it whereas if we rasie the turn we are saying that we have him and he "might" fold.

Conversly if he has a 7 raising him on the turn will lose us the maximum when he 3bets us and we pay him off. EVen if he has a 7, reraises the flop or checkraises the Turn, we still lose less then getting 3bet on the turn.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:19 AM

I am sure you can find a raise somewhere here cant you?

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure you can find a raise somewhere here cant you?

[/ QUOTE ]

why? you are HU against a virtual unknown who could have any hand. He is representing a hand, or trying to bluff us out of a small pot. We have a very meh redraw if we are behind, and villian is usually drawing awfully thin when we are ahead.

peace

john nickle

thesharpie

04-15-2005, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the contrary, I am not. What I am saying is that if he has a J and we rasie the flop it is most likely for him to call all the way down with it whereas if we rasie the turn we are saying that we have him and he "might" fold.

Conversly if he has a 7 raising him on the turn will lose us the maximum when he 3bets us and we pay him off. EVen if he has a 7, reraises the flop or checkraises the Turn, we still lose less then getting 3bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand do you think BB will play with that has a 7 in it after an early position raise? I wouldn't play any apart from 77. If he hates giving up his blinds he could have a 7, but it's very unlikely.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:30 AM

True but we where discussing raising the flop as opposed to raising the turn if bet to. I am with you in wanting villain to continue to bluff at it, (if we are ahead) and I believe that raisng the turn would make him shut down, whereas raising the flop might not.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:32 AM

I dont know he could have anything 87s k7s 72o, it doesnt matter we are saying IF he has a 7.

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 06:32 AM

This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1907820&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) thread, and the link to the NPA post contained therein, may be interesting to you all. Slightly different, but perhaps still pertinent.

peace

john nickle

pistol78

04-15-2005, 06:35 AM

IMHO not a good example. After I saw the hand I stopped reading becsaue I didnt want to alter my thinking. In this hand we have TPTK on a paired board. In your hand the board is paired but there is also an overcard.

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO not a good example. After I saw the hand I stopped reading becsaue I didnt want to alter my thinking. In this hand we have TPTK on a paired board. In your hand the board is paired but there is also an overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats just one of the more ridiculous things ive ever read on this board. The reasoning about how to evaluate hands like these is in that thread. Seriously. I cant believe you just wrote what you did.

peace

john nickle

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 07:00 AM

Heres (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=971260&page=0&view=co llapsed&sb=7&o=&vc=1) the link to the original thread by NPA. Yes its a different situation, but its dicussing how to deal with these bets out of nowhere by compele randoms.

peace

john nickle

TomBrooks

04-15-2005, 07:55 AM

Read no replies yet...

I like raising the flop becuase if he bets the turn, you don't know if he has a J or a 7, especially since he was the BB he might play a 7.

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 09:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Read no replies yet...

I like raising the flop becuase if he bets the turn, you don't know if he has a J or a 7, especially since he was the BB he might play a 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might play a 7, he might play a thousand hands.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE LEARN THAT THE LIKELINESS OF HIM HAVING A 7 IS VERY REMOTE HEADS UP AND PROBABLY ISNT IT.

Even more so because he called a raise by me; whats that leave him with, A7, K7, Q7, 77.

People, its not rocket science. This guy WILL ALMOST NEVER HAVE A 7. IF HE DOES, WE'RE [censored] ANYWAY.

Irregardless of how I play it, I'm paying him off. Its inevitable. BUT HE DOESNT HAVE A 7. Think about how many hands we're talking here on the entire spectrum.

Besides, any normal player with a 7 WILL NOT BET INTO ME. They will check-raise me. This further reduces his possible holdings.

What I'm more worried about is him having 2 heart and an overpair. By waiting for the turn, I give him self confidence on the flop, and he'll bet in and I'll trap him. If the card is majorly scary (like a king), I might raise and fold to the 3bet (or call fold turn UI with odds). If its a heart, I play for my outs.

I'm usually one to keep my cool when doing this stuff, but you guys are really testing me. If I posted this in the small stakes, I'd get a very different response, infact I'm tempted to do just that.

McGahee

04-15-2005, 09:29 AM

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

How does it allow you to get away from your hand cheaper?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if its a really bad card for us. Obviously with a 7 we're screwed either way.

bottomset

04-15-2005, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why not a call call bet line, or conversely, calling until checked to, then betting. standard way ahead/ way behind line.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly what i was thinking

Trix

04-15-2005, 10:43 AM

It´s fine, I think I raise the flop more often than I flatcall here though, but mixing it is the way to go.

Entity

04-15-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It´s fine, I think I raise the flop more often than I flatcall here though, but mixing it is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like fastplaying against players who will play back with other Jacks and marginal hands like 44 here, but I'll usually just let them bet for me if they're passive and will slow down easily.

But yeah, mixing it up is good.

Rob

pistol78

04-15-2005, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO not a good example. After I saw the hand I stopped reading becsaue I didnt want to alter my thinking. In this hand we have TPTK on a paired board. In your hand the board is paired but there is also an overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats just one of the more ridiculous things ive ever read on this board. The reasoning about how to evaluate hands like these is in that thread. Seriously. I cant believe you just wrote what you did.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Its not the same situation. It adds an extra variable.

pistol78

04-15-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read no replies yet...

I like raising the flop becuase if he bets the turn, you don't know if he has a J or a 7, especially since he was the BB he might play a 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might play a 7, he might play a thousand hands.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE LEARN THAT THE LIKELINESS OF HIM HAVING A 7 IS VERY REMOTE HEADS UP AND PROBABLY ISNT IT.

Even more so because he called a raise by me; whats that leave him with, A7, K7, Q7, 77.

People, its not rocket science. This guy WILL ALMOST NEVER HAVE A 7. IF HE DOES, WE'RE [censored] ANYWAY.

Irregardless of how I play it, I'm paying him off. Its inevitable. BUT HE DOESNT HAVE A 7. Think about how many hands we're talking here on the entire spectrum.

Besides, any normal player with a 7 WILL NOT BET INTO ME. They will check-raise me. This further reduces his possible holdings.

What I'm more worried about is him having 2 heart and an overpair. By waiting for the turn, I give him self confidence on the flop, and he'll bet in and I'll trap him. If the card is majorly scary (like a king), I might raise and fold to the 3bet (or call fold turn UI with odds). If its a heart, I play for my outs.

I'm usually one to keep my cool when doing this stuff, but you guys are really testing me. If I posted this in the small stakes, I'd get a very different response, infact I'm tempted to do just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

But earlier you said:

" think out of the possible BB hands (and there's a lot), another jack probably isn't a likely scenario. There's the same chance he has another 7 to be honest."

SO which one is it. YOu think he a 7 or you dont think he has a 7?

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 06:22 PM

What the hell?

I don't think he has a 7, or a jack. I merely responded to your scenario where you said "oh what about a jack", so I put it to you that if he had a worse jack, we're going to make almost the same money.

But what about the other kajillion hands he probably has?

HE DOESNT HAVE A J OR A 7!

ArturiusX

04-15-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not a call call bet line, or conversely, calling until checked to, then betting. standard way ahead/ way behind line.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly what i was thinking

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the line would be more appropriate for a low pocket pair like 55. A great chance we have the best hand here, and we have a great chance of drawing to a better hand/trapping bets.