My Carpal/'Tunnel Post [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : My Carpal/'Tunnel Post

PokerBob

04-14-2005, 08:31 PM

I am uncomfortable with this label. All it means is that I post too much. It says nothing about my poker inablilites. Please do not assume (as I often do) that just because I am a C/T, that I know what the hell I am talking about. I have all memebrs of 2+2 nation to thank. I will name 2. Sthief09 (may he rest in peace), and Bob T. I will admit that I now suck much less than before, but I still suck. Here is an example. A good player wins this hand.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc 7c (two pair, queens and fives).
Hero has Jh Jd (two pair, jacks and fives).
Outcome: SB wins 10 BB.

cnfuzzd

04-14-2005, 08:34 PM

you did win the hand. Your opponent misplayed every street, even saving you money by not raising the river.

welcome to the lounge. Hey, and when josh tries to tell you that you have to let him sheer your scrotum as part of initiation, hes lying. Dont fall for it like i did.

peace

john nickle

thirddan

04-14-2005, 08:42 PM

yeah, that guy is way better than you...

PokerBob

04-14-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, that guy is way better than you...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not implying that the winner was better than me, but rather that if I was a better player, I would have been able to avoid the suckout. Hence, "A good player wins this hand." I am not yet good.

SmileyEH

04-14-2005, 08:52 PM

Standard start to finish.

-SmileyEH

einbert

04-14-2005, 08:54 PM

No way I play this hand differently.

Congrats on Carpal/Tunnel. At this rate I'll be there in a couple months lol.

cnfuzzd

04-14-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah, that guy is way better than you...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not implying that the winner was better than me, but rather that if I was a better player, I would have been able to avoid the suckout. Hence, "A good player wins this hand." I am not yet good.

[/ QUOTE ]

good players are the ONLY ones to get drawn out on. Not because we only play good hands and are rarely drawing incorrectly, but because jesus hates us because we are degenerate gamblers that dont spend enough time glorifying him and furthering his work while on this planet. Something to think about the next time your set of aces goes down to a rivered one card flush

peace

john nickle

uw_madtown

04-14-2005, 08:57 PM

pokerjunky

04-14-2005, 08:58 PM

How would had you have avoided this suckout? That sounds like a pretty neat trick for me to learn.

thirddan

04-14-2005, 09:02 PM

fine, i shall keep my wit and humor to myself /images/graemlins/smile.gif

obviously you played this fine...

PokerBob

04-14-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout? That sounds like a pretty neat trick for me to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, and once one learns it, one can be considered a stellar player. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

pokerjunky

04-14-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout? That sounds like a pretty neat trick for me to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, and once one learns it, one can be considered a stellar player. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so its all about how one focuses the mind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chairman Wood

04-14-2005, 09:20 PM

Congrats, Bob. You know you played the hand fine. To celebrate C/T go spend all the sklansky bucks that you just made on that hand.

PokerBob

04-14-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout? That sounds like a pretty neat trick for me to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, and once one learns it, one can be considered a stellar player. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so its all about how one focuses the mind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure, but when I figure it out I'll let you know.

wrto4556

04-14-2005, 09:22 PM

bobbyi

04-14-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout?

[/ QUOTE ]
By folding preflop.

PokerBob

04-14-2005, 09:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout?

[/ QUOTE ]
By folding preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

vnh

HollywoodDB

04-14-2005, 09:28 PM

seriously...?

nolanfan34

04-14-2005, 09:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you did win the hand. Your opponent misplayed every street, even saving you money by not raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/nolanfan34/byebye.jpg

[ QUOTE ]
welcome to the lounge. Hey, and when josh tries to tell you that you have to let him sheer your scrotum as part of initiation, hes lying. Dont fall for it like i did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funniest laugh of the day for me.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob T.

04-15-2005, 04:57 AM

Hey Bob,

I think that the heart of your problem here, is that you don't realize that there is a fair amount of disconnection between mathematically correct play, and being pushed the current pot. I think you also don't realize, that the connection between being pushed the current pot, and playing well is also fairly fuzzy.

Most of the time in holdem, preflop, one hand is at best a 4-1 favorite over another hand. But hands that are only going to win 20% of the time, still win one out of five times, and that is a lot. When that happens, you have to just be able to put it aside, and go on to the next hand. More often, the best hand is a 3 to 2 favorite, which means the underdog wins a hell of a lot.

In this case, I disagree with your assessment that a good player won the hand. It was 3-6 holdem, and he coldcalled in the SB with Q7s. I don't think that good players make that call in this structure in a three handed pot. Additionally, if a good player did find himself in this pot, shouldn't he make a semibluff raise at some point, hoping that you might have a big ace, and have to lay your hand down without a showdown. If he's relying on the flush to win, he is only going to win about 1/3 of the time, and if you don't have a pocket pair, he can probably do better than that by betting or raising somewhere along the line.

The question shouldn't be, how do you win the hand, because once he calls preflop, you aren't ever going to win this hand with that board. He's locked in to the river, and if the queen helps him, you just are going to have to lose. What the question should be is - If he is going to coldcall in the SB, and most likely other places with any two suited cards, how do I go about taking advantage of his play. The second question you should be asking here is, if he makes this mistake, what other mistakes is he likely to be making. I would guess that he frequently peels one with a backdoor flush draw also. How are you going to adjust to that play. What does it mean for your flop play, and -hint- what adjustments do you make on your turn and river play. If you are looking at his poker tracker stats, or other database statistics, what telltale signs might you see in his summary statistics, and how does that confirm you hypotheses and affect your play?

Don't just worry about this hand, worry about how this hand was played, and what it tells you about how you should play in the future.

You shouldn't be thinking, 'God he plays bad, but he plays lucky'. Instead, you should be thinking, if he makes this type of play, how do I benefit from his play. In fact, it isn't just bad plays that you can benefit from, it is also good plays. Maybe, someone who plays aggressively, but well, can be trapped for extra bets. Maybe someone who always tries to value bet draws, can be enlisted to help you protect your hand. Maybe a player who calls for pot odds all the time, can be exploited with value bets. Maybe you can play a little deceptively against a good card reader, and get him to make a huge sklansky mistake.

Ever play has strengths and weaknesses, and depending on how you see your opponents playing, you need to figure out how to take advantage of those.

Oh yeah, congratulations on the C/T.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

oreogod

04-15-2005, 05:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bob,

I think that the heart of your problem here, is that you don't realize that there is a fair amount of disconnection between mathematically correct play, and being pushed the current pot. I think you also don't realize, that the connection between being pushed the current pot, and playing well is also fairly fuzzy.

Most of the time in holdem, preflop, one hand is at best a 4-1 favorite over another hand. But hands that are only going to win 20% of the time, still win one out of five times, and that is a lot. When that happens, you have to just be able to put it aside, and go on to the next hand. More often, the best hand is a 3 to 2 favorite, which means the underdog wins a hell of a lot.

In this case, I disagree with your assessment that a good player won the hand. It was 3-6 holdem, and he coldcalled in the SB with Q7s. I don't think that good players make that call in this structure in a three handed pot. Additionally, if a good player did find himself in this pot, shouldn't he make a semibluff raise at some point, hoping that you might have a big ace, and have to lay your hand down without a showdown. If he's relying on the flush to win, he is only going to win about 1/3 of the time, and if you don't have a pocket pair, he can probably do better than that by betting or raising somewhere along the line.

The question shouldn't be, how do you win the hand, because once he calls preflop, you aren't ever going to win this hand with that board. He's locked in to the river, and if the queen helps him, you just are going to have to lose. What the question should be is - If he is going to coldcall in the SB, and most likely other places with any two suited cards, how do I go about taking advantage of his play. The second question you should be asking here is, if he makes this mistake, what other mistakes is he likely to be making. I would guess that he frequently peels one with a backdoor flush draw also. How are you going to adjust to that play. What does it mean for your flop play, and -hint- what adjustments do you make on your turn and river play. If you are looking at his poker tracker stats, or other database statistics, what telltale signs might you see in his summary statistics, and how does that confirm you hypotheses and affect your play?

Don't just worry about this hand, worry about how this hand was played, and what it tells you about how you should play in the future.

You shouldn't be thinking, 'God he plays bad, but he plays lucky'. Instead, you should be thinking, if he makes this type of play, how do I benefit from his play. In fact, it isn't just bad plays that you can benefit from, it is also good plays. Maybe, someone who plays aggressively, but well, can be trapped for extra bets. Maybe someone who always tries to value bet draws, can be enlisted to help you protect your hand. Maybe a player who calls for pot odds all the time, can be exploited with value bets. Maybe you can play a little deceptively against a good card reader, and get him to make a huge sklansky mistake.

Ever play has strengths and weaknesses, and depending on how you see your opponents playing, you need to figure out how to take advantage of those.

Oh yeah, congratulations on the C/T.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar post IMO. Awesome stuff. U just got yourself added to the address book, sir.

cnfuzzd

04-15-2005, 05:18 AM

blah blah blah,,, essentially all this hocus pocus mumbo jumbo boils down to the fact that jesus hates bobs.

peace

john nickle

Argus

04-15-2005, 07:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent misplayed every street

[/ QUOTE ]
What was wrong with the turn?

Congrats on C\T PokerBob. You're still the only 2+2 I've knowingly played against without being at a 2+2 table. You also have an 18.84 BB/100 winrate that I've observed. Try to keep this up.

PokerBob

04-15-2005, 08:01 AM

Bob,
As usual, you have uncorked yet another gem of a post.

That said, I clearly need to work on my articulation as I intended my "A good player wins this hand" comment to be a joke. I didn't mean to say that the guy who won was good (clearly he made some dreadful errors), but rather that if I was good I would have been able to coax a brick out of the deck on the river. My sense of humor sucks.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughs.

Bob T.

04-15-2005, 12:08 PM

That said, I clearly need to work on my articulation as I intended my "A good player wins this hand" comment to be a joke. I didn't mean to say that the guy who won was good (clearly he made some dreadful errors),

Put a smiley next to it /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Then I'll figure it out. Otherwise, the line between sarcasm, and bitterness gets pretty small at 4am, when I do most of my reading here.

At the same time, what I was trying to point out, is that I don't believe the weakness in your game is knowing what to do when the situation is x, y, and z. It is recognizing x, y, and especially z.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

Elaboration

04-15-2005, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold pre-flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chris Daddy Cool

04-15-2005, 12:22 PM

i've pretty much all but given up on making strategy posts anymore, but i'd like to say that there's too many damn carpal/tunnels around.

quick game!
name as many SS forum regulars that are carpal tunnels (without checking).

cassady

04-15-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would had you have avoided this suckout? That sounds like a pretty neat trick for me to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, and once one learns it, one can be considered a stellar player. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so its all about how one focuses the mind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure, but when I figure it out I'll let you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Call until you have a better hand than me, then fold. Oh....and these aren't the droids you're looking for....."

PokerBob seeks Jedi Poker Master status.

sfer

04-15-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
name as many SS forum regulars that are carpal tunnels (without checking).

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Josh still a regular? JBB? JR? For that matter, where the fcuk is Sublime and Entity?

meep_42

04-15-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i've pretty much all but given up on making strategy posts anymore,

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

StellarWind

04-15-2005, 12:45 PM

Congratulations and it was a funny post! Actually the funniest part is the number of respected posters who took you seriously /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Was this the 2500th suckout of your career?

Oh, BTW, you should have gone for the checkraise on the turn. That picks up an extra bet from Button and pushes the flush draw out of the hand.

StellarWind

04-15-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent misplayed every street, even saving you money by not raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
All of SB's postflop plays are at least reasonable and probably what I would do.

Check-raising the river is a terrible play that will probably only be called by a better hand.

Entity

04-15-2005, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
name as many SS forum regulars that are carpal tunnels (without checking).

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Josh still a regular? JBB? JR? For that matter, where the fcuk is Sublime and Entity?

[/ QUOTE ]

What the [censored]? I'm still here. I think Sublime is playing 10/20SH fulltime now. I'm working up for a push to the 5/10 6-max game next week. Life has sucked the last month and I haven't gotten much poker in.

Rob

QTip

04-15-2005, 01:19 PM

Sthief09 was logged on yesterday. He showed in in my home as viewing a list of posts in threaded view....he's not dead.

QTip

04-15-2005, 02:52 PM

In fact, he's on right now....2:52 EST. He loves us..just has to find it in his heart.

chesspain

04-15-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sthief09 was logged on yesterday. He showed in in my home as viewing a list of posts in threaded view....he's not dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone remember the over/under line?

QTip

04-15-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone remember the over/under line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remain clueless...

CallMeIshmael

04-15-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone remember the over/under line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh... its under.

jason_t

04-15-2005, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, he's on right now....2:52 EST. He loves us..just has to find it in his heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

He emerged (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=2150144&Foru m=f2&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2150144&Sea rch=true&where=bodysub&Name=8444&daterange=1&newer val=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost2150144) Thursday and said that he will return in a month.

chesspain

04-15-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He emerged (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=2150144&Foru m=f2&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2150144&Sea rch=true&where=bodysub&Name=8444&daterange=1&newer val=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost2150144) Thursday and said that he will return in a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Puxatony Josh?