How Goes The Challenge? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 06:18 PM

So about a week ago, I challenged all micros posters (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=87923&F_Board=micro&Threa d=2089249&partnumber=1&postmarker=) to post replies to threads without reading other responses first. My claim was that it's a better learning experice to write a wrong answer than to just read a right one.

My challenge has gotten a ton of response. I see people posting "grunching" in thread after thread after thread, and I think its really great. And I might be biased, but it seems like the forum signal:noise ratio has been a lot better than usual. Lots of high-quality discussion, very little noise. Everybody is getting in to the act.

But what do you think? Has the challenge helped your game? Has it helped the forum? What can we do to make it better?

This is not a call to stop the challenge. Kepp it up.

istewart

04-14-2005, 06:28 PM

Forum is coming along nicely. Thanks GrunchbisonMiller.

mvoss

04-14-2005, 06:34 PM

Its working out very well for me as one of the new posters. I just hope that people don't find it too annoying that my posts don't always make a lot of sense after all the other posts.

istewart

04-14-2005, 06:36 PM

waynethetrain

04-14-2005, 06:41 PM

I think this was a great idea, but I've been a little too busy to fit in both playing and daily hand analysis.

I've also been having all sorts of trouble getting Absolute Poker to send me my hand histories. I keep requesting them but they never come. Support has not responded to any of my e-mails. (working off a bonus there waiting for a PP reload)

I can give you a updated status on my playing though until I have more time to contribute daily.

I am still getting creamed playing 2nd pair even though I've read the relevant SSH sections about 5 times and reviewed lots of hand discussions here. I'm almost at the point where I'm convinced that WLLH's tight weak play is actually better in almost all cases when playing $1-$2 or above with 2nd pair. Maybe at $0.50 - $1.00, it's a different story, but at $1-$2 most people usually don't bet or call unless they have top pair, a good draw, or are last to bet. Some of my attempts to protect big pots by raising and forcing some players to face 2 bets are killing me because the original bettor almost always has me beat and sometimes reraises.

I am also becoming more and more convinced that playing very tight starting hands at $1-$2 has some downsides. At this point I am fairly certain that other players are catching on to my tight pre-flop play and giving my raises and early position limps much more respect than "average".
Maybe more people than we think have software that tracks other people's play at this point because I have a tough time getting callers. Is it possible that it's necessary to start mixing it up a little at $1-$2?

shadow29

04-14-2005, 06:42 PM

Since you posted that, I think I've posted maybe twice.

You suck.

mmbt0ne

04-14-2005, 06:49 PM

Don't you have more hands to make someone else play?

shadow29

04-14-2005, 06:51 PM

Sadly, no.

I had no takers so my bonus expired.

Oh well.

I'll get back to playing poker some day. I haven't played seriously in a week or two. Which means I won't get to play seriously until after exams. ugh.

mojobluesman

04-14-2005, 06:53 PM

We have almost identical experiences.

TripleH68

04-14-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its working out very well for me as one of the new posters. I just hope that people don't find it too annoying that my posts don't always make a lot of sense after all the other posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I have reached some "intermediate" level just above "decent." A year ago I was timid about posting, would read responses and then not post. I think this stunted my growth a bit. You may not realize it, but from where I sit ALL posts from newbie to advanced player help my game. They help me remember the point of each thread more clearly and this in turn helps at the table.

Thanks Grunch. It has become even clearer that more responses enhance the forum. More hand posts drag it down.

BTW, since many people are not shy about posting their downswings I will throw you a bone: up over 100BB in my last 2,000 hands. Please do not let this be a jinx!

<font color="blue">"I am not superstitious, I just wouldn't want to do anything that would bring me bad luck."</font>

Redd

04-14-2005, 07:12 PM

So far, the only thing that I've learned at an increased pace is how much I suck ass at poker. It's a little frustrating to confront how bad you really are at something even after investing a good amount of time and effort into it. I think you're correct that the SNR of the forum has gone up since you posted, and I'm noticing it too.

And dude, I think you're a great boon to the micro forums, a fantastic poster, and a really sharp poker mind, but I'm afraid there's no way I'm gonna call it grunching. No offense intended and I know you're not encouraging it, but comes across as a little sycophantic to me, and I think that Ed should get a 'konging' term before anyone else becomes a namesake.

[ QUOTE ]
What can we do to make it better?

[/ QUOTE ]
One thing that I've noticed a few people doing is posting their first suggestion in the dark, then going back to reply to other posts. Some edit their original posts and put a little follow-up. I think this is really helpful for everyone, because if we're all posting in the dark and moving on, we're really taking the whole 'discussion' aspect out of hand discussion.

UncleSalty

04-14-2005, 07:34 PM

I've been lame. I promise to do better. (Although it's earnings season in my crappy corporate finance job, so we'll see how that works out in the next month.)

Duerig

04-14-2005, 07:36 PM

It has helped a ton. Replying to hands, I have found, is a much faster way to learn than posting hands. Much faster. MUCH FASTER. BOOYAKASHA.

tinhat

04-14-2005, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But what do you think? Has the challenge helped your game? Has

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, can't talk now and I don't have time to play cards. I'm busy posting...

KingOtter

04-14-2005, 07:44 PM

Not that I want to sound uppity, or whatever, but if I'm going to post I generally liked to post 'in the dark' or 'grunching' or whatever, even before the challenge. I've always liked putting in my thoughts before reading others. So I think it's a great habit for everyone to get into.

But when I don't have time for serious posting / analysis I just read through everything and say mmhmm, or 'what?' and if the 'what?!' is enough of a ?!?! then I post.

A lot of times working through my post is a learning experience in itself as other factors enter my brain as I'm trying to organize them for the post.

KO

jaxUp

04-14-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I'm afraid there's no way I'm gonna call it grunching

[/ QUOTE ]

How about "tarding" as it often makes people feel retarded. Plus, I don't think I'd ever get tired of seeing that word at the start of every post.

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I'm afraid there's no way I'm gonna call it grunching.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first time I saw the phrase, I had to ask the poster what it meant. Not my idea, and I don't have a stake in what its called. I'm not even really sure there is an "it" to have a name here. Like others have said, this idea isn't original - its just that some people have never heard it before. Kind of the same thing when someone recommends betting & raising with the nut flush draw. It wasn't that persons original idea - they are just passing it along.

jaxUp

04-14-2005, 08:57 PM

I stand by my recommendation of tarding. It doesn't give nybody credit, it's mildly entertaining, and I thought of it, so clearly it's a great idea.

UncleSalty

04-14-2005, 08:58 PM

I think I'm just gonna go with "Blind Response"

PokerProdigy

04-14-2005, 09:00 PM

Yeah, nice idea I've been doing it lately (except I usually try to post more than five). Also, everyone out there doing the "grunching challenge" MAKE SURE you read what others wrote (because it's helpful to see how your advice stacks up against others) just don't read what they wrote until you have already replied.

KingOtter

04-14-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm just gonna go with "Blind Response"

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely we can come up with something more interesting than that!

How about, 'Naked Lady in the Morning' ... that would be interesting.

You could put phrases like, "Okay, I'm doing a Naked Lady in the Morning here..." or... "My turn for a Naked Lady in the Morning" at the beginning of your posts.

KO

PokerProdigy

04-14-2005, 09:02 PM

<font color="blue">"I am not superstitious, I just wouldn't want to do anything that would bring me bad luck."</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this NOT superstitious? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
LOL

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I stand by my recommendation of tarding. It doesn't give nybody credit, it's mildly entertaining, and I thought of it, so clearly it's a great idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative connotation?

DerFleischmeister

04-14-2005, 09:06 PM

Starting it tonight. Get ready for some REALLY marginal content.

numeri

04-14-2005, 09:14 PM

[grunching] /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's helped my game tremendously. It really makes me think about responses instead of just reading and saying "Yeah, that's totally what I'd do." Now I get to post and see how wrong I really am! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

droolie

04-14-2005, 09:14 PM

I think the "grunchers" should at least skim the thread before posting. When I say that I mean LOOK FOR ADDITIONAL HAND HISTORY!

There are many hands that are play along and when guys post on the pf action when everyone lese is talking about the flop or turn it really gets confusing. If you can't skim without clouding your mind at least be sure you state what part of the hand you're referring to, especially if the first post in the thread is a partial hand history!

numeri

04-14-2005, 09:20 PM

This is true - I try to only tard (if you're going to take away Grunch's glory) on one of the regular hands. Usually the 'play along' titles make it clear that the history will be coming in steps.

And to Redd, I'm probably as guilty as anyone else of using the term grunching. As I'm relatively knew to the forum, it sounded cool, so I picked it up. I am by no means attached to the term. (no offense to Grunch)

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 09:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(no offense to Grunch)

[/ QUOTE ]

None taken. The more I see the phrase used, the more I don't like it, and it seems clear that I'm not the only one. So I'll go on record now and ask people to not call it grunching.

numeri

04-14-2005, 09:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(no offense to Grunch)

[/ QUOTE ]

None taken. The more I see the phrase used, the more I don't like it, and it seems clear that I'm not the only one. So I'll go on record now and ask people to not call it grunching.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. But I still need some disclaimer to put so I don't sound like an idiot who hasn't read the thread. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But I still need some disclaimer to put so I don't sound like an idiot who hasn't read the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Blind Response" and "tarding" seem popular.

Redd

04-14-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to take away Grunch's glory

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't give anybody credit

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh me being a cynic caught on way more than I intended it to. I think that Grunch does deserve a hell of a lot of credit for publicizing this idea, and for his contribution to our community in general. I am extremely grateful for all of his (and the other pooh-bah's) help, not only for their time but also because it's -EV for them in the long run.

Just because I'm not practicing it, I didn't mean to discourage anyone else from using 'grunching' at all. Maybe when someone's being a nitpicking party-pooper, we should start saying they're "redding"? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

UncleSalty

04-14-2005, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that Grunch does deserve a hell of a lot of credit for publicizing this idea, and for his contribution to our community in general. I am extremely grateful for all of his (and the other pooh-bah's) help, not only for their time but also because it's -EV for them in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, here.

GrunchCan

04-14-2005, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it's -EV for them in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not. It's extremely +EV for me to post, even when I'm correct in my advice and I've given that advice over & over. That's becasue every time I explain it to someone else, it forces my own mind to understand it better.

wabe

04-14-2005, 11:11 PM

For those of you who have seen my posts and thought they are crap, please feel free to tell me so, either publicly or privately. For those of you who have commented on my posts, I thank you.

UncleSalty

04-14-2005, 11:24 PM

There's no need for that post man. #1: We're all here to learn. #2: If your posts are crap, nobody here is too shy to tell you so.

Redd

04-14-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's -EV for them in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not. It's extremely +EV for me to post, even when I'm correct in my advice and I've given that advice over & over. That's because every time I explain it to someone else, it forces my own mind to understand it better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha but I right after I registered here, I saw some guy that came about a month before me named Grunchcan discussing hands (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=988172& Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=26&Limit= 25&Main=986790&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=1600 0&daterange=1&newerval=2&newertype=y&olderval=&old ertype=&bodyprev=#Post988172) with guys like SFer. SFer learned a bit, I'm sure, but thanks in part to him, there's another shark in the fish pond /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Damn dude, did you start from scratch only a month before I did? That's a little depressing.

benkath1

04-14-2005, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to take away Grunch's glory

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't give anybody credit

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh me being a cynic caught on way more than I intended it to. I think that Grunch does deserve a hell of a lot of credit for publicizing this idea, and for his contribution to our community in general. I am extremely grateful for all of his (and the other pooh-bah's) help, not only for their time but also because it's -EV for them in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

How bout making it a 'sticky', or having a link to it in the FAQ? Or whatever it's called that stays at the top of the post.

Many thanks to you GrunchCan. A major game improvement method.

Felipe

04-15-2005, 12:06 AM

Here's an Idea: Why don't we just write down on a piece of paper, or just remember in our minds, what we think of the hand posting - before reading other ppl's replies. THEN we can read the replies, then add our own reply.

This way, we don't make dumb a-s-s mistakes replying, wasting other ppl's time, and looking foolish ourselves. And, this way, we still get all the learning from Grunchcan's original plan.

nuf sed
felipe

bottomset

04-15-2005, 12:54 AM

i thought the challenge was going great till some idiot posted about back to back quad sevens /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Shillx

04-15-2005, 01:39 AM

It's going great Grunch! I feel like this is going to really help my game!

Now it looks like I won't be ending up like Linda Evans. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad

kong98

04-15-2005, 03:16 AM

I just started doing this today, and I think it's a great idea. I have never thought that much about the hand posts before. I read them go "yep, that's how I'd do it" and go on without actually learning anything.

Thanks GrunchCan!

Kong98

Wetdog

04-18-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I still need some disclaimer to put so I don't sound like an idiot who hasn't read the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Blind Response" and "tarding" seem popular.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally like using /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif to signify "in the dark", but maybe using only /images/graemlins/club.gif if you are in doubt or /images/graemlins/spade.gif if you feel confident about your reply.

no1super2001

04-18-2005, 01:49 PM

I am not making the 5 hands per day quota, but I think it is helpful. I put considerably more thought into my response, even as a newbie. I would like to see a little more open critique of the newbie posts. Can't speak for anyone else, but that is the best way for me to develop my skills. For the pooh-bas, it may give them the opportunity to revisit and reinforce basic concepts that may be though of as second nature at this point in their posting career.

tiltaholic

04-18-2005, 01:49 PM

mwa ha ha. i created a monster with that grunching thing i guess.... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif I particularly like the "People have been saying this all day....". Like, duh, man, get with it....

you never know what will snowball around here i guess.

(and i really could care less about the term -- it's a helpful discussion/learning tool)