88 - stop'n'go

[Nick Royale]

SB is very loose and passive. Button had TAGish stats.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero folds...

[brettbrettr]

3 bet the flop and lead the turn.

[PokerBob]

I hate the pf raise.

[jason_t]

I don't like the preflop 3-bet.

I'm check/raising that flop.

The way you played it, the turn fold is fine.

[Nick Royale]

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I hate the pf raise.

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Why?

[PokerBob]

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I hate the pf raise.

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Why?

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It looks like you have only 2 opponets. I just don't think you have enough equity here. If you were HU or against a several opponets, I wouldn't mind it. But as it stands you are oop vs. a tag.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the preflop 3-bet.

I'm check/raising that flop.

The way you played it, the turn fold is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I raised preflop was that a TAG will raise many hands from the button, many which only have 1 overcard to my 8's. I want to fold overcards before the river, and I think I increase the chance of winning before the river by raising preflop.

The loose SB had over 70% vpip and could even have no over card. My equity in this situation is great.

I didn't choose to check/raise the flop b/c my relative position to the preflop raiser were no good.

[wrto4556]

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I hate the pf raise.

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Why?

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OOP and not isolating anyone. You're going to end up putting in 3-4 bets with a marginal hand preflop OOP against 2(?) other players.

[Nick Royale]

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It looks like you have only 2 opponets. I just don't think you have enough equity here. If you were HU or against a several opponets, I wouldn't mind it. But as it stands you are oop vs. a tag.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's VERY wrong. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2154540&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) is why.

[meep_42]

I concur, I think you have to 3-bet this against a probable steal. SB's call is actually gravy as you're likely the favorite pf.

The flop only helps your cause, pump it.

-d

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I raised preflop was that a TAG will raise many hands from the button, many which only have 1 overcard to my 8's. I want to fold overcards before the river, and I think I increase the chance of winning before the river by raising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the preflop.

The part I bolded is of a lot of importance, IMO. 3-betting tends to over represnent your hand here, and a tag would tend to fold weak overcard hands (KJ/AT and lower) very quickly when he misses for fear of domination.

However... once you've gotten there, I dont like the sng. Just 3-bet the flop.

[PokerBob]

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It looks like you have only 2 opponets. I just don't think you have enough equity here. If you were HU or against a several opponets, I wouldn't mind it. But as it stands you are oop vs. a tag.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's VERY wrong. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2154540&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) is why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I got all f'ed up with converter syaing 4-players, but the I counted only 3...I am a moron. Sorry. Easy 3-bet.

[Nick Royale]

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I concur, I think you have to 3-bet this against a probable steal. SB's call is actually gravy as you're likely the favorite pf.

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When I posted this hand a preflop 3-bet seemed auto for me (and still does).

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The flop only helps your cause, pump it.


[/ QUOTE ]
I thought just calling the flop and betting the turn could be fine since I'll only get capped on the flop by better hand. A flop 3-bet will also give button the oppurtunity to call and turn raise (the fold would then be easy but losing 1SB more).

If I call the flop and bet the turn I won't give any freecards and i still think a fold to a raise is safe. At the time I felt smart, but beeing straight forward might be the best way to go here.

[jason_t]

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It looks like you have only 2 opponets. I just don't think you have enough equity here. If you were HU or against a several opponets, I wouldn't mind it. But as it stands you are oop vs. a tag.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's VERY wrong. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2154540&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) is why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I got all f'ed up with converter syaing 4-players, but the I counted only 3...I am a moron. Sorry. Easy 3-bet.

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Same.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I got all f'ed up with converter syaing 4-players, but the I counted only 3...I am a moron. Sorry. Easy 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's agree to blame the converter /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just to prove my point I started running poker stove with stealing hands + legitimate hands on button and a pretty wide range on SB. It takes time to run but my equity seems to land on ~42%.

[Nick Royale]

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However... once you've gotten there, I dont like the sng. Just 3-bet the flop.

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After a cap, fold the turn UI?

[CallMeIshmael]

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After a cap, fold the turn UI?

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I think I would check/call a non 2/non A .

Check/fold other cards (on the assupmtion that he would likely check behind with, say, KdJd).

If he does decide to check behind, give him the free card... he has payed for it already.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would check/call a non 2/non A .

Check/fold other cards (on the assupmtion that he would likely check behind with, say, KdJd).

If he does decide to check behind, give him the free card... he has payed for it already.

[/ QUOTE ]
But if he checks behind with KJd he paid for it while he had equity.

I'm not sure I can fold the turn even after a cap, which is why I like my stop'n'go better. If he's on a strong draw (a TAG will be a fair ammount of the time) he won't be able to play me off my hand and he won't get a free card.

So, despite all you guys telling me to 3-bet the flop, I still like my stop'n'go...

[CallMeIshmael]

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I'm not sure I can fold the turn even after a cap, which is why I like my stop'n'go better.

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I cant say this is true for all TAGs, but, for me in particular:

I have you beat more frequently when I cap the flop and bet the turn than when I raise your SnG.

Basically, why can you fold where you did and not the turn bet after the cap? (keep in mind my line only has you folding to the turn when an Ace beats you)

[Nate tha' Great]

Played fine, IMO. The preflop raise is clear and this isn't a bad spot at all for the stop-n-go, since there are a fair number of cards that would pretty much kill your hand. I have to say, though, I'd at least have to consider calling down once he pumps it again, though, depending on the river card. It's possible that he's smothering this board with his J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif but it's also possible that he's overplaying something like 66 or A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I don't think SB has you beat and it's not like the Button is likely to have a big pocket pair.

[Nick Royale]

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I cant say this is true for all TAGs, but, for me in particular:

I have you beat more frequently when I cap the flop and bet the turn than when I raise your SnG.

Basically, why can you fold where you did and not the turn bet after the cap? (keep in mind my line only has you folding to the turn when an Ace beats you)

[/ QUOTE ]
You got a point. My point was that flop can be capped by a draw, and the turn isn't likely to get raised by a draw.

OTOH not very many players bet a draw on the turn after have gotten 3-betted on the flopn.

[FoodForThought]

I don't particularly like your preflop reraise against two players. Heads up, OK....but 88 against two players...you were getting 5 to 1 with a call?? So, I would call preflop and I would bet the flop hoping button raises to force SB out of the hand (as you did). Then, with SB calling the raise, I just call the flop (want to see what turn brings) and lead the turn like you did. I also fold to a turn raise and an SB call as you did (you could already be way behind...and, if you aren't, there are MANY cards that can beat you). If SB folds on the flop...I three bet and lead turn.

[Nick Royale]

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I don't particularly like your preflop reraise against two players.

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I think the raise is easy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2154540&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1).

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If SB folds on the flop...I three bet and lead turn.

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And I think this is a reason to call rather than 3-bet. The added value from SB is the reason I consider 3-betting the flop.

[FoodForThought]

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The reason I raised preflop was that a TAG will raise many hands from the button, many which only have 1 overcard to my 8's.

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I can think of many MORE hands that have TWO overcards or have you beat altogether. I understand that you still have the edge if he just holds overcards...but how do you play a flop with any broadway card given the range of overcards he may have...coupled with a loose SB?


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I want to fold overcards before the river, and I think I increase the chance of winning before the river by raising preflop.

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By three betting, you increase the size of the pot. Assuming both players just call the flop, there will be 7 big bets in the pot after your turn bet...making a call with overcards correct. Also, you have less of a chance to protect a vunerable hand with a favorable flop because button will be less likely to raise with overcards, giving SB 11-1 to call.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
By three betting, you increase the size of the pot. Assuming both players just call the flop, there will be 7 big bets in the pot after your turn bet...making a call with overcards correct. Also, you have less of a chance to protect a vunerable hand with a favorable flop because button will be less likely to raise with overcards, giving SB 11-1 to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
But if I just call there's still 7.5BB in the pot on the turn. If I 3-bet how can they know how many outs they have? They can't and a TAG will release his overs on the turn if I bet after a flop 3-bet frequently making an incorrect fold. But the most important argument for 3-betting the flop is that we have a very loose SB adding lots of value. And even if they will make the call on the turn with just overs after the 3-bet on the flop made their flop play worse, since they couldn't call 3 bets on the flop profitable with just overs. (and they both make a profitable call on the turn with overs only if they don't share overs)

Still I believe my SnG was good play, but for different reason than you stated.

[FoodForThought]

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But if I just call there's still 7.5BB in the pot on the turn.

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There is???? When you bet the turn, I count 6 if button raised the flop and SB folded. I count 7 if SB cold called a flop raise (worse pot odds...bigger mistake). I count 5.5 if they both called the flop.

You still didn't answer my question. How do you play a flop with an A, K, Q, J, or T when you bet and get raised? You fold? Well, a TAG will often throw in a positional raise. You call? If SB calls too...you can't feel too good about your hand. You three bet? You could be three betting with 2 outs.

You said three betting preflop is easy. I disagree. You can make arguments for three betting, but it is not easy. I think this is a situation where it is best to give up any preflop pot equity advantage (assuming you have it) for a postflop strategic advantage.

[CallMeIshmael]

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I think this is a situation where it is best to give up any preflop pot equity advantage (assuming you have it) for a postflop strategic advantage.

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IMO, 3-betting has far far more of a strategic postflop advantage than calling. In the lead VS someone who will incorrectly release overcards = $$$.

[FoodForThought]

You are assuming you get the actual flop everytime!! WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN OVERCARDS FALL with TWO players in the pot and you don't have position??????????

[CallMeIshmael]

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WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN OVERCARDS FALL with TWO players in the pot and you don't have position??????????

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I play poker.

[meep_42]

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I play poker.

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BLASPHEMER!

-d

[CallMeIshmael]

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BLASPHEMER!

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LOL..

Yeah.

I mean a question like 'what do you do if an overcard flops and you are OOP' is SOOOO vague, thats about the only answer I can give. There are just too many variables to consider.

[FoodForThought]

Vague??? How is that vague? Did you read the original post? You just three bet with 88 in BB and button and SB are with you. Flop comes KT2 rainbow and SB checks...now what?

[CallMeIshmael]

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Vague??? How is that vague? Did you read the original post?

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you do realize that...

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You are assuming you get the actual flop everytime!! WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN OVERCARDS FALL with TWO players in the pot and you don't have position??????????

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all of a sudden became...

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You just three bet with 88 in BB and button and SB are with you. Flop comes KT2 rainbow and SB checks...now what?

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There is a WORLD of DIFFERENCE between these two questions.

Of course I dislike this flop, but, as I am still in the lead, I would bet out, and see what happens.


I also have to ask... how is this flop that much easier to play if you called preflop?

[FoodForThought]

A world of difference? I assumed you were reading the posts and could figure out my question. KT2, AQ4, Q93, QJ3, etc.........it was obvious.

[CallMeIshmael]

A)

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KT2, AQ4, Q93, QJ3

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Are all different situtions

B) You said nothing of suits (in your first post)

C) You said nothing of action (in your first post).

Basically, you said: 2 overcards flopped... now what do you do?

It was far from obvious.

[FoodForThought]

lmao.....

must be tough to be you..........