Too aggressive?

[imported_Jim C]

Hello, I played this hand extremely aggressively. I'm wondering if it was too aggressive. After UTG's turn check, I figure I'm golden. How does this look to you guys? No read on UTG. CO is 33/12 but only 50 hands on him.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (20.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 32.16 BB ($190)

[littlejohn]

In clarkmeister spirit, I'm going to start replying (whether qualified or not...)

Odd hand. I think you got too aggressive on the river with the 3 bet. On the turn I put CO on a low set - then he becomes concerned that you have a bigger set after you raise him again. So on that read you're still behind on the river. Then...you get river checkraised by the UTG who I think now has a set of queens (although it would be odd flop and turn play for him if so). The CO calls along since it's a huge pot and his bottom set might still be good.

I think you took third in this hand - and I'd have probably slowed down either on the CO turn bet or the river check behind.

[brettbrettr]

Considering you're not going to chase out the CO I don't know that I'd cap the flop after UTG raiser 3 bets. Turn looks good. River I think is ok, looks like UTG was on AQ or maybe KsQs so even though I hate capping again when this guy is still giving so much action, looks ok. Lord knows what CO has....A5? KQ?

[crunchy1]

Reads would help. Although regardless of a read(s) - I think I'd be happy closing the action on the river after the first raise (especially with CO cold-calling in front on me).

[shant]

I would call the river closing the action.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the river closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

[CallMeIshmael]

This is a really great hand to post... Im tempted to say I dig it... but I could be convinced otherwise

Pre-Flop: Standard. Easy 3-bet. Easy Call.

Flop: A case can be made for calling the 3-bet and raising the turn. It is very likely that you have the best hand here. You are only behind to AsAd. There is a decent chance of being freerolled to the spades by another AK though (and totally screwed to AsKs). Most unknowns don't cap AsQs preflop, but that is also a possible holding. Because of COs most likely inferior hand, I like the cap.

Turn: CO wakes up, and that is odd. AK is far and away your most likely holding (if you are a solid), and he leads into you. This is odd, but the raise is automatic.

River: this is where it gets good! At first, your 3-bet looks like chip spewery. But I just cant put UTG on a hand that beats you.

Holdings where 3-bet is bad:

TJ: Umm... no.
55/88: preflop cap is very rare here.
QQ/KK: The turn/river make some sense. But, wtf is with the flop 3-bet OOP?
AsAd: I *could* see some playing that hand this way. But there is exactly 1 combination of AA.

Hands its good to 3-bet against:

AK: The turn action is weird, but all other streets check out.
AQ (especially AsQs): Preflop cap is weird. But, its not unreasonable to think this is AQ postflop.

Now, you are getting 2-1 on your raise. The problem, however, is that IF you are getting money from this pot, its very likely that you are splitting with the other player.

I think I like the 3-bet, because his action is really funky for a hand that beats you. But, I could be convinced otherwise.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like the 3-bet, because his action is really funky for a hand that beats you. But, I could be convinced otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. My first instinct was to say why 3 bet the river but after looking it back over it made more sense. Like you, I'm having a hell of a time putting UTG on anything that beats Hero here. Postflop it really looks like AQ but then pre-flop seems weird. Maybe he went gonzo with KK on the flop? I have a feeling he's just not a rational player, which would completely change the way I'd play the river.

Reads?

[meep_42]

That river action seems a bit excessive to me. I wouldn't have capped the flop, either, though (i'm a weak-tighty).

I really like the turn raise (and fold to a 3-bet?), but when UTG c/r's the river, I can't think you're good here enough to 3-bet and cap, knowing you'll lose the overcaller most of the time he caps and some of the times he doesn't.

-d

[SGS]

I would have just called the river check-raise unless I know this guy to get out of line. You have defined your hand and he shows a ton of strength.

SGS

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe he went gonzo with KK on the flop? I have a feeling he's just not a rational player, which would completely change the way I'd play the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats odd is that I essentially cant have a hand here. There are no hands that I take that line with (and I would think that I am not the only 2+2er who feels that).

That being said, things like KK/QQ come into play.

But, at the same times, so does AQ, because he clearly doesnt exactly play our standards.

In my first post, I said that you have represented AK. But, does the preflop capper really care? Putting him on a thought is as difficult as putting him on a hand here.

Because of this (and the turn action) I like the (edit: I said cap first) raise. I think. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[chesspain]

Although I oftentimes have difficulty finding thin river value raises, I think that three-betting the river here is spewery. Unless you have reason to believe that UTG is a complete maniac and/or idiot, I can't see him checkraising this river with a hand you beat. Meanwhile, the CO is merrily calling all bets and raises PF and on the flop, and then bets out after UTG checks the turn!? Consequently, I'ld be concerned that he could possibly have a better hand than mine on the river, even if he might be afraid to go to wall if he "only" has a hand like 55/88.

Consequently, I would just call the river raise, and not be surprised if I lost this hand.

[wrto4556]

He could have played a set this way (AA-QQ). I don't like the 3-bet on the river after being check/raised. He capped preflop...so in all likelyhood, you are either spliting or losing the pot, imo. AK, AA-QQ.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
In clarkmeister spirit, I'm going to start replying (whether qualified or not...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

I don't really like the turn raise. CO has weathered all sorts of heat and now is coming out firing? What exactly could UTG have that we are actually worried about that we need to drive out? No reason to raise the turn here. I'd call. 3-betting the river is borderline insane.

[rmarotti]

Your river play sucks.

[imported_Jim C]

Thanks for all of these great replies. This hand really confused me, and I think it speaks to my current "stuckness".

UTG was completing his first lap at the table, but had been in most hands. I felt he might be a taz, the kind of guy who will go off for a lot of bets when he gets a pair of aces while playing A8o, so I was reluctant to back down from him. I had no respect for him at all. But then, even players you don't respect show big hands from time to time. How can you possibly know? It seems to me you can't, so you either pay too much on their good hands, or don't make a lot of bets on their (mostly) marginal hands. Am I looking at this wrong?

This hand illustrates a general problem I'm having. It seems to me that a tremendous amount of one's winnings comes from LAGs overplaying second best hands. These people on Party 3/6 are just horrible and could have anything. When do you slow down with a very good hand? When should you respect the (generally) unrespectable?

I have a similar issue with extremely passive players. Often, in a many-handed pot, some timid player will have a raggedy 2 pair, but will be afraid of a big hand given the amount of aggression I'm showing, and they'll just call all the way. Its hard to know where you stand with these players. I'd like to know how you guys think about this.

In this hand, UTG was way overplaying KQ offsuit, while CO flopped a set of 5's and played them timidly. Both players were playing outrageously. Maybe I was too. CO cold-calls a preflop raise from UTG with nobody else in the pot with 55? UTG caps with KQ? It goes downhill from there.

I'm winning 3/6 for 1.5BB/100, but I must be calling down too much and keeping my foot on the gas too much (like this example, maybe). In general, it seems to me that if many hands are more than 2 handed at showdown, one would want their W$@SD to be less than 50%. My WTSD and W$SD are 37.25/48.88, which are not in-line with other players here.

Please help me understand why the river 3 bet sucks or is borderline insane. If I have the best hand at showdown more than 33% of the time these are solid value bets. Same goes for the turn raise. I could be totally wrong, but I figured these were good value bets. A set happens a small percentage of the time, and AA or KK happen only one way.

In hindsight, should I have been more concerned with the CO and started calling down at some point?

My #1 issue: how do I determine a probability estimate that my hand is good, especially against these types of players.

I understand tactical betting and raising fairly well, I think, and I understand outs/odds/drawing when I'm pretty sure I'm behind.

What I struggle with is knowing when I'm behind.

Please, any thoughts would be tremendously appreciated!

Best,

Jim

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand illustrates a general problem I'm having. It seems to me that a tremendous amount of one's winnings comes from LAGs overplaying second best hands. These people on Party 3/6 are just horrible and could have anything. When do you slow down with a very good hand? When should you respect the (generally) unrespectable?


[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to say that there are LAGs at 3/6, although not nearly as prevalent as loose-passives. However, its pretty rare to encounter complete maniacs and many of these guys slow down when the bets get large on the turn and river. I think one way to spew a lot of money is over-estimating the aggressiveness of a given game and pay off too much with someone you think is a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a similar issue with extremely passive players. Often, in a many-handed pot, some timid player will have a raggedy 2 pair, but will be afraid of a big hand given the amount of aggression I'm showing, and they'll just call all the way. Its hard to know where you stand with these players. I'd like to know how you guys think about this.


[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are your baby in 3/6. Its fantastic when you raise preflop w/ AA and get called all the way to the river with some guys flopped two pair and he never puts in a raise once. Saves you a ton of money.

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand, UTG was way overplaying KQ offsuit, while CO flopped a set of 5's and played them timidly. Both players were playing outrageously. Maybe I was too. CO cold-calls a preflop raise from UTG with nobody else in the pot with 55? UTG caps with KQ? It goes downhill from there.


[/ QUOTE ]

The guy with the KQ is clearly a tard. I don't think the guy w/ 55 played it terribly, although he probably could have stuck in a 3-bet on the turn.

[imported_Jim C]

[ QUOTE ]
I think one way to spew a lot of money is over-estimating the aggressiveness of a given game and pay off too much with someone you think is a LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I must be doing this. However, it seems that dice and taz players are really common on 3/6. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of outrageous bluffing by poor players in this game, much more than one would expect. Where do you draw the line? How do I improve my estimation of the aggressiveness and improve how often I'm calling down. I really think 3+BB/100 is totally attainable, but I'm having trouble getting the balance right to achieve this.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the guy w/ 55 played it terribly, although he probably could have stuck in a 3-bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing that was terrible was entering the pot, in my opinion.

Thanks again,

Jim

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
He could have played a set this way (AA-QQ). I don't like the 3-bet on the river after being check/raised. He capped preflop...so in all likelyhood, you are either spliting or losing the pot, imo. AK, AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is he 3-betting the flop OOP with KK or QQ?

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He could have played a set this way (AA-QQ). I don't like the 3-bet on the river after being check/raised. He capped preflop...so in all likelyhood, you are either spliting or losing the pot, imo. AK, AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is he 3-betting the flop OOP with KK or QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the flop wrong. I thought there was a Q in there when I posted. He capped preflop is what I was trying to get at.