Q6s bb special

[Chris Daddy Cool]

here's an intersting hand. i don't seem to remember the exact details of the board but its close enough to this.

15/30 full table

unknown player openlimps. a very tough player who knows me raises after him and an idiot cold-donks on the button. sb folds. i call in the bb with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

flop: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet. limper folds. villian raises. button calls. I 3-bet. villian and button call.

turn: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check. Villian bets. Button calls. I raise.

Comments so far?

[MoreWineII]

I'm sure it's fabulous, but can you explain the turn c/r a bit?

[spoohunter]

I want to check raise to keep donk in, but I guess it's easier to get donk to C2C than it is unknown player, and check raising usually only gets two bets here which sucks, so flop play is good.

I think the turn is FPS, but you have 14 outs, and atleast 11 of them are good, so it can't be too bad.

[chief444]

I think there's a pretty reasonable chance of getting a better hand to fold with this line and if not you're likely close to even money or at least not losing much on the turn check/raise. So I like it.

[cassady]

Great C/R here, given a player tough enough to fold it.

Combine odds of him folding to odds of you improving, the raise is by far the right choice.

I need to work this into my play more. I'm too predictable on the turn. Then again, my turn check raises get called down a lot even though I usually have the best hand, so maybe I shouldn't complain..........

[BigEndian]

I think if he knows you, the CR on the turn doesn't gain you the folding equity you're looking for. With the exception of him not having anything but Ace-high - which is moot.

Then add in the additional player in the mix. He may very well fold to your CR (your line looks like a standard set), but does it happen often enough to merit the money you're putting in?

- Jim

[Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
here's an intersting hand. i don't seem to remember the exact details of the board but its close enough to this.

15/30 full table

unknown player openlimps. a very tough player who knows me raises after him and an idiot cold-donks on the button. sb folds. i call in the bb with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

flop: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet. limper folds. villian raises. button calls. I 3-bet. villian and button call.

turn: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check. Villian bets. Button calls. I raise.

Comments so far?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your read on button is that he is a retard, which tells me you can't fold him out with your turn c/r. I like this a lot more if it is HU with villain, who probably could toss a hand that beats you.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if he knows you, the CR on the turn doesn't gain you the folding equity you're looking for. With the exception of him not having anything but Ace-high - which is moot.

Then add in the additional player in the mix. He may very well fold to your CR (your line looks like a standard set), but does it happen often enough to merit the money you're putting in?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here's the thing.

You know there's a pretty good chance that the good player is going to raise if you bet out, mostly because the turn card does not complete straights and flushes, and to a lesser extent, because the card puts a king on the board. In other words, there's a good chance that you're going to be paying two bets on this street even if you bet out.

By check-raising, you give the guy a chance to fold. Whether he folds a better hand or not might depend as much as anything on what sort of mood he's in (one slight problem is that, if the third player is truly donkilicious, he might not protect the pot for you since the good player will believe that he's ahead of the donk), but you give him that chance. But you also potentially collect an extra bet that way from the donk if he has something like a gutshot, which is desirable if you do not believe that you presently have the good player beat.

[BigEndian]

I follow the thought process. My stipulation is Chris said he was known to the villain. If the villain knows Chris, he's not going to get moved from a hand very easily since Chris would have a very aggresive profile. I'm not sure it's worth the extra bet and the possibility of being 3-bet given this bit of info.

- Jim

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I follow the thought process. My stipulation is Chris said he was known to the villain. If the villain knows Chris, he's not going to get moved from a hand very easily since Chris would have a very aggresive profile. I'm not sure it's worth the extra bet and the possibility of being 3-bet given this bit of info.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, it's pretty tough for the villian to 3-bet without a very strong hand ... if nothing else, the 3-bet might resolve any ambiguity about whether CDC should put a bet in on the river unimproved.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i normally don't checkraise this turn but i do it from time to time.

when villian bets this turn i know he has a better hand than me, but theres a really good chance i have a better hand than the button. so i mix and match and decide that checkraising the turn might get villian to fold out something like QQ-TT (99 can't fold because he has a gutshot) and get me HU with the button.

also nate's points in this hand are very good too.

anyways, i checkraised the turn and much to my dismay he calls and the button calls. and in my head i say i will not put any bets on the river unless a club, Q or 6 comes up and if they don't come up hopefully villian would want to avoid the humuliation of a double c/r and check it through, but if he bets again i know i can muck.

anyways it was a moot point because i river the flush and villian pays me off with TT.

[StellarWind]

I think this is a value raise against two opponents. I see 14 outs and a pair of sixes that may well be good despite the king. Very often the king splits Villain's overcards and as painful as that is for him I don't see what else he can do but bet the turn against a dodo and a likely drawing hand.

Of course any folds you get are greatly appreciated but I'm not planning on them. You just win this more than 1/3 of the time.

[chief444]

14/46 = 30% so it's close...not quite for value on a draw alone...but certainly doesn't have to win you the pot by getting a better hand to fold that often to make up the difference.

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
anyways it was a moot point because i river the flush and villian pays me off with TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly.

- Jim

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to check raise to keep donk in, but I guess it's easier to get donk to C2C than it is unknown player, and check raising usually only gets two bets here which sucks, so flop play is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris,

Was this your thinking at the time as well? You were counting on the the villain to raise and the donk to call 2 cold?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
i river the flush and villian pays me off with TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the skill I need work on.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, here's the thing.

You know there's a pretty good chance that the good player is going to raise if you bet out, mostly because the turn card does not complete straights and flushes, and to a lesser extent, because the card puts a king on the board. In other words, there's a good chance that you're going to be paying two bets on this street even if you bet out.

By check-raising, you give the guy a chance to fold. Whether he folds a better hand or not might depend as much as anything on what sort of mood he's in (one slight problem is that, if the third player is truly donkilicious, he might not protect the pot for you since the good player will believe that he's ahead of the donk), but you give him that chance. But you also potentially collect an extra bet that way from the donk if he has something like a gutshot, which is desirable if you do not believe that you presently have the good player beat.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, now there's a level of thinking I've to even dream about.


Adam