Thinking Ahead and River Action

[QTip]

I've been trying to work on thinking ahead in hands (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2029405&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) . Problem is, I'm not sure what I should have done here even though I was thinking about it. What would you have been thinking while calling this turn? (Please refrain from talking about the PF call, I know it was marginal at best.)

This was actually a 2/4 6 max table at UB, but I'm posting here because I don't think it matters that much for what I'm after....

I'm sb with 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, I complete, option checks.

Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, I call

Turn: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I call (should be thinking right now about what I should do if I catch my outs right? What would you be thinking?)

River: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero?

[Gob_Bluth]

Where did BB go ? (Swap seats with utg1 ? /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

If it is BB who now checks, and UTG changes his mode from checking to betting out you have to at least wonder why.

QJ seems unlikely, so two pair looks goods enough- fire one, call a raise from UTG who might think his top pair medium kicker is good.
The same goes for the flush/trips, though I could see checkraising those seeing how unlikely they ought to seem to your opp.

Oh and btw- thanks for your pooh bah paper, that collection of posts really helped my take a hard look at my game when it really needed one. (It might still, but at least I am (re)gaining confidence.)

[crunchy1]

What happened to UTG after your turn call?

[ QUOTE ]
What would you have been thinking while calling this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

That I really got myself in a mess with my PF/Flop play. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If I manage to hit any of my 14 outs I'm checkraising if my UTG+1 read is that he'll bet again and leading if he's a check-the-river type.

[cflynn]

Did UTG call?

I would bet out -- too great a chance of getting it checked through otherwise. Esp. like this line if UTG is still around. CR obviously would come out of nowhere, but I would need a strong read that UTG1 is betting.

[chief444]

I think the flop call is a little shaky. Not that bad though completing the action with the BD flush.

I think the preflop complete in 1/2 blind structure 6-max game is standard. Folding preflop seems bad to me.

I bet/call the river. Whenever the flop bet and turn bet come from two different opponents and no one raises it seems like there's too good of a chance it checks through on the river, IMO.

[QTip]

Yeah...they swapped seats, which I thought was wrong, but Poker Essays II said not to press technicalities in order to keep games good, so I let it go /images/graemlins/cool.gif I screwed it up. BB checks on the turn and UTG bets.

I decided to try to get a check raise in because I thought at least UTG bets again because the 4 wouldn't appear to help anyone. I was planning on betting a spade.

Great! I'm glad that post helped you out!

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/call the river. Whenever the flop bet and turn bet come from two different opponents and no one raises it seems like there's too good of a chance it checks through on the river, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was really afraid of seeing it check through, but I went for the check/raise anyway. Does this make sense since the likely better will be UTG, and then I face BB with 2 cold and maybe UTG folds anyway? Am I better off just calling his bet if I had checked and try to pick up an overcaller..or just screw the overcaller because there's just 1 for a free ride?

[Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been trying to work on thinking ahead in hands (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2029405&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) . Problem is, I'm not sure what I should have done here even though I was thinking about it. What would you have been thinking while calling this turn? (Please refrain from talking about the PF call, I know it was marginal at best.)

This was actually a 2/4 6 max table at UB, but I'm posting here because I don't think it matters that much for what I'm after....

I'm sb with 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, I complete, option checks.

Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, I call

Turn: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I call (should be thinking right now about what I should do if I catch my outs right? What would you be thinking?)

River: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

A c/r would be cool. I thought about betting so I could 3-bet, but a cap would make me puke so I like the c/r.

[chief444]

You're position relative to the turn bet is part of the reason I like just betting out. I wouldn't want to face BB with calling two when I'm very likely to have him beat. I'd rather he call one at a time. Or at least call one.

[Gob_Bluth]

Hmm- If you check raise (having a strong read that UTG will bet) you get UTG's initial bet, plus say a fifty percent chance on him calling your check raise (is that optimistic ?)and say a ten percent chance of BB colddonking = 1 + (.5 *1) + (.1*1) = 1.6 bets
Calling would get you the one bet, plus whatever percentage of a bet from BB (how likely he is to make the 1 BB overcall).
So if you think BB would call the single bet more than sixty percent of the time, just call. Wherever UTG will call the raise more than fifty percent of the time (or utg will cold donk more than say ten percent) , check raise.

All this presuming yhig of course.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
You're position relative to the turn bet is part of the reason I like just betting out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking after I did it. However, what else could they put me on but 2 pair on this board after I call the whole time and then bet out on an apparent blank?

[chief444]

You didn't give any reads (which I think are even more important in short handed games) but I wouldn't assume they're thinking anything really. Maybe two pair. Maybe top pair. I would think the 4 likely improved you somehow. But that doesn't mean they'll think that and it also doesn't mean they won't call with top pair or even a middle pair.

[QTip]

Reads...yeah...that's what's sucking about playing UB right now. I've got nothing at all. This was about 15 hands into the table. Only read was BB was a donk.

[Bob T.]

I check, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I call (should be thinking right now about what I should do if I catch my outs right? What would you be thinking?)



First, the preflop call isn't marginal. It is standard.

Now, does a four look dangerous to anyone? How about a three? How about a runner runner flush in a six max game? Are your outs well disguised? Hell, yeah. Let whoever has been taking the lead bet, then you checkraise.

[meep_42]

I like bet/call, since UTG+1 could have been taking a stab with a weak hand on the turn.

-d