ASB %, and the effect of increased preflop aggression on postflop play

[balkii]

So we are all trying to steal little bit more. A little earlier, a little more often, a little bit lighter. Hey Nikla says to, right? And we all want to win 4/100.

I have no problem with this. Hell i can openraise in position all day long. I just find it starts to really change things postflop, which is giving me a hard time. Things i've noticed:

- You dont get much credit for having a hand. Well this is great when you flop something, but realisticly you have a non-showdown worthy hand most of the time on the flop. People chase things that they "should fold" (ie undercards) but if they knew what your hand was they are actually playing correctly often times.

- You are constantly forced to fold to aggression because of the first factor.

- This leads to an image that you can be stolen from easily even when you raise preflop.

- This forces you to goto showdown or play aggressively with just about ANYThing thats actually decent. A-high and above pretty much.


Anybody else dealing with these things? I mean, I understand that "thats 6max for ya" but i feel like i'm totally missing something. I've upped the VPIP, i've upped the steals, I've up the blind defenses, and my winrates not getting anywhere but my SD sure as hell is.

Since moving to 10/20 i've gone from vpip 22 to 24. Folded BB to steal from 59 to 52. ASB from 30 to 35. Postflop its just not happening for me. I need ideas. Where should I look. what kinds of hands can should I post?

Thanks

[wuarhg]

I have the same problems, it seems like the blinds are never folding except when I have a big hand.

[Guido]

Good post, I had/have a hard time with this too. A lot of the time I bet out on the flop, check the turn and fold the river with hands like 98o or T7s. Sometimes I bet the flop and turn. It all depends a lot on the board and how loose my opponent is. With hands like K4o and A2o you have a lot more showdown value as you know and in those cases I like to bet the flop check the turn and call a river bet. Of course this all depends on what the flop and turn cards are. Sometimes you need to keep pushing. I think my W$SD is still too high, around 54%. Also checking the flop and betting the turn is a line that seems to work for me lately. It's not easy and it takes time to adjust. I haven't figured it all out either. I don't defend as much as you do but that's because I'm not very good when I don't have position. I do steal raise a little more than you do. Maybe Nikla can give you some more advice.

Thanks,

Guido

[naphand]

I understand what you are saying but perhaps your thinking is too 1-dimensional.

Playing a looser aggressive game (V$IP 25-30%, PFR 17-20%) is not just about raising X from Y, or stealing with Z. Playing this kind of game is going to need good reads on opponents AND a read on how they are responding to you AND what you have done recently.

A simple example: raise more when you have shown down some good hands, back off when you have been called down with 2nd/3rd pair.

Know who to steal from and watch for your opponents adjusting, have 2-3 different strategies for post-flop play and switch to prevent giving too much away.

Regardless of what people say about morons in a lot of the on-line games, even if they are not thinking about anything specific they do get more or less aggressive, more or less tight during a game. Knowing this and recognising this is what allows you to loosen up (and is the reason why Peter_Rus said he could not play the very LAG style more than 2-tabling, Nikla may be exceptional in that he can 4-table this style, that does not mean you or I can...).

I do not think it is as hard as people think to do this, but it is VERY HARD if you have not developed a strategy to playing under certain conditions/against certain players. And by this I mean more than the usual standard responses to LAGs etc. Extra BB can be extracted from players when you see they are responding to your play.

For example: you raise PF, bet the flop, bet the Turn, check the River with overs. If you have been seen doing this and you think you have been "sussed", do this with a big hand and CR the River. Not only do you get an extra BB on a given hand, but you also get to see some free SD's for a while when you want them. It is very short-term though, IMO.

Of course this is highly specific, but the LAG style of play goes beyond "standard" play and EV, and is much more about playing the individuals at your table and getting extra bets from Palyer A like so, and Player B like so.

I think you know this, and I think it is quite a task. There is no short-cut, you have to go over hands again and again and work out how you could play the hand depending on who or what happened. Some can do this naturally, others (like me) just have to put in hours and hours of time off-table to get things straight in their heads. And by off-table I do not just mean on-forum, I mean going over numbers, thinking deeply about strategy and spending much time reviewing hands in PT (with the replayer).

For example: most of the hands you can steal with are easily determined from math. But actually playing the more marginal ones depends a lot on what you intend to do post-flop, and who you are stealing from. You will recognise the marginal hands and you will see that they play differently post-flop. The tricky part is figuring out all those marginal spots and knowing when to use certain plays, when to back off. A lot of extra BB will come from using players' aggression against them, and taking people by surprise.

Confuse your opponents; think more 5 HU matches, than playing a 6-player table.

[balkii]

nice post nap, thanks

[Grisgra]

I identify COMPLETELY with every single line in your post. They're calling the flop with nothing, sometimes not even an overcard, and add that in with the occasional bluffs . . . ugh. I agree with nap that mixing it up might be the only solution.

[rory]

If they start defending more and calling more because you are raising a lot, then they have adjusted because you are playing crap and they know it. So the way you adjust is to not raise crap for a little while, tighten up. They will still be playing you like you have crap when you have legit hands, and you will win a lot of money off of them by getting paid off. Eventually, they will adjust back and start folding to you once you show them a couple hands, then you start raising crap again.

If you want to play more aggressively, you don't have to do it all the time. If your opponents have obviously adjusted, then just stop doing it for a while.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
If they start defending more and calling more because you are raising a lot, then they have adjusted because you are playing crap and they know it. So the way you adjust is to not raise crap for a little while, tighten up. They will still be playing you like you have crap when you have legit hands, and you will win a lot of money off of them by getting paid off. Eventually, they will adjust back and start folding to you once you show them a couple hands, then you start raising crap again.

If you want to play more aggressively, you don't have to do it all the time. If your opponents have obviously adjusted, then just stop doing it for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is so simple, yet beautiful.

[balkii]

how does this change when it gets down to 4-handed though? you HAVE to get in there and play.

[rory]

That sentiment loses more money in short handed games than any other.

[J.R.]

Nikla says no (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=872940&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
That sentiment loses more money in short handed games than any other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, rory, I've played with you on a 4-handed table before and I definitely think you could have made a little more $$ by loosening up /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Esp. with your table image.

All depends on how other people are responding to the game being 3-handed or 4-handed IMO. If they are all loosening up a ton and playing back, you don't want to be raising from the CO with J9s. On the other hand, if people are playing the same hands that they are when the table is 6-handed, I think you can get away with a little more, as they're slightly less likely to have an ace or king (about 3% more unlikely or so for both, I'd guess).

[rory]

I've lagged it up in the past month. Up to 33% VPIP 4 handed.

[balkii]

thanks for the link JR.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
I've lagged it up in the past month. Up to 33% VPIP 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

holy crap im tighter than rory! I just checked my 4-handed VPIP, its 28. this then gave me an idea to check my BB/hand filtered for 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 players at a table.

in an 80k hand sample i:

slightly ahead at 2-handed
down at 3-handed
break-even at 4-handed
a little up at 5-handed
and way up at 6-handed

meh. perhaps i'll just stick to "full" 6 max games for a bit. I like getting into the really shorthanded games but i think i am getting crushed by LAGs.